Slater Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 I thought Canada wasn't interested in the F-35? https://www.defensenews.com/global/the-americas/2020/07/31/these-three-companies-submitted-bids-for-canadas-fighter-competition/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albeback52 Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 Maybe they aren't but, it doesn't prevent a manufacturer from submitting a bid. If they are not wanting the F-35, then I guess it will be eliminated from the competition at some point. I suspect they want to maintain the charade of an "open competition" for now. Besides, politicians change their opinions as often as the wind changes direction! 😉😂 Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 Sounds like the same sort of farce they got into over the AW101/S-92. Incoming politician cancels order in big fanfare of 'saving money' then at a later date they are faced with ordering it again. I wonder if we will see the same desperation not to buy the original aircraft as we saw with the maritime helicopter contract 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albeback52 Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 On 8/5/2020 at 9:49 AM, Dave Fleming said: Sounds like the same sort of farce they got into over the AW101/S-92. Incoming politician cancels order in big fanfare of 'saving money' then at a later date they are faced with ordering it again. I wonder if we will see the same desperation not to buy the original aircraft as we saw with the maritime helicopter contract Par for the course. I fully expect the F-35 at least to be dropped "after due deliberation" and, in view of its original rejection!! Cynical mode off!! 😉😂 Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 (edited) With Turkey out of the F35 program, doesn't this open the door for Canada to take on many or all of the roles Turkeywas due? They are after already involved with the F35 program and certainly a very stable partner. Perhaps it has a better chance than you might think. Edited August 10, 2020 by noelh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimpyboy Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 (edited) Theres always the Super-Duper Hornet (an upgraded version of the Super Hornet). Edited August 11, 2020 by Blimpyboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 No Eurofighter? No Rafale in the bidding anylonger? Then it has to be Gripen, no? Both F-35 and Super Hornet have been rejected before.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 Would I be accused of mischief making if I suggested Hawker Siddeley Canada or whoever owns that entity now resurrect Avro Canada and dust off and upgrade a few old plans? Pity it’s only 88 airframes order requirement and a non starter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Headroom Posted August 11, 2020 Share Posted August 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, JohnT said: Would I be accused of mischief making if I suggested Hawker Siddeley Canada resurrect Avro Canada and dust off and upgrade a few old plans? Pity it’s only 88 airframes order requirement and a non starter What on Earth would they do with 88 C-102 Jet Liners? Trevor 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimpyboy Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, JohnT said: Would I be accused of mischief making Someone had to do it - nicely done! Aah, the nostalgia-mongering for the good ol' CF-105 - almost as bad as that for the TSR.2! Hopefully, this doesn't get us shut down... Edited August 12, 2020 by Blimpyboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busnproplinerfan Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 I don't even know what's happening with it. I'm pretty sure the days of true competition are done and it's politics that wins the order. The super duper hornet would be the simplest choice but they'll likely order the most base model then spend a fortune more upgrading it. The other side is, who are we going to shoot down? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorth Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 (edited) It was a previous Liberal government that got Canada into the F-35, then came a Conservative governemnt that bought some nice new stuff for the Canadian military but didn't really move on the F-35 as they should have. Beyond announcing in 2010 an intent to buy 65 F-35s that would enter service in 2016, the Conservative government really did nothing with the F-35. If the two previous governments had done something meaningful to move the F-35 forward as far as Canada was concerned, it could have been far enough along that you might have seen RCAF pilots training on it alongside pilots from other NATO nations and Canadian insignia on F-35s before the current govenment got power instead of needless and redundant "competitions" for a new fighter. At this rate, Canada will have spent more on those "competitions" than purchasing the F-35 ever would have cost them. Bear in mind that Canada went into the F-35 as a third tier partner; the same level as Australia, Denmark and Norway. All three of those nations have active F-35 squadrons now. Canada could have had the same by now as well. As for what could do the job for Canada if not the F-35, the short answer is probably nothing. The Typhoon was out of the running long ago. Early generations of the Gripen lacked adequate unrefueld range. Saab is offering the new generation of Gripen to Canada these days, but I think the same result will be seen with that. The Super Hornet is a capable aircraft, but not the most contemporary "Show of force" that a country like Canada needs given who's on the other side of the North Pole and still sends Bears over every now and again to see if Canada is awake. Dassault has aggressively marketed the Rafale to Canada with the promise of industrial offsets. Where that could go, who knows. Edited August 12, 2020 by upnorth 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Martin Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 The desire is to purchase 88 aircraft. Canada has spent 600 million thus far on the program. Delay delay delay, and now with all the social spending in the billions, there will be more delay. PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busnproplinerfan Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Maybe the F-35 will be obsolete by the time something gets picked. What other actual choices are there currently? People may hate social spending in place of the military but without it right now, I'd be living on the street. We're actually lucky to have a minority gov't right now since they have to work with the others. Otherwise whatever majority gov't could do anything they want. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 19 hours ago, busnproplinerfan said: Maybe the F-35 will be obsolete by the time something gets picked. What other actual choices are there currently? Rafale and Typhoon would have been the obvious, but both withdrew over concerns at integrating into NORAD citing non-availability of specs they were asked to integrate with (the US/Canada 2-EYES in the case of Typhoon and also the anglophone 5-EYES in the case of Rafale). Actually slightly surprising Gripen is still in there, as it would have the same issue. Ultimately, I suspect it will be between Super Hornet and Lightning, and that might come down to what type of fighter Canada wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busnproplinerfan Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 4 hours ago, Dave Fleming said: Rafale and Typhoon would have been the obvious, but both withdrew over concerns at integrating into NORAD citing non-availability of specs they were asked to integrate with (the US/Canada 2-EYES in the case of Typhoon and also the anglophone 5-EYES in the case of Rafale). Actually slightly surprising Gripen is still in there, as it would have the same issue. Ultimately, I suspect it will be between Super Hornet and Lightning, and that might come down to what type of fighter Canada wants. Could almost write a soap opera over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 On 8/5/2020 at 2:31 AM, Albeback52 said: Maybe they aren't but, it doesn't prevent a manufacturer from submitting a bid. If they are not wanting the F-35, then I guess it will be eliminated from the competition at some point. I suspect they want to maintain the charade of an "open competition" for now. Besides, politicians change their opinions as often as the wind changes direction! 😉😂 Allan Canada does want the F-35. The current PM made a blind promise at one point not to buy it. The entire fighter community, current and retired, support the F-35. Currently the PM has stopped serving members from speaking in favor of the F-35. I’m retired so I can speak. Canada has been Level II partners in the F-35 program since its inception (in the form of the JSF program). We have shared in the R&D of the F-35 and contribute 50 million yearly to remain in the program. To become Level II members, a previous Liberal government paid 200 million for us to be elevated to that level. The Super Hornet will likely no longer be in production by the time this decision is made in five years. Plus it will be a 30 plus year old jet. It doesn’t suit our needs. We don’t even have the aviator field that sits in the back seat. Our current PM also burned some bridges with Boeing, so I doubt they will be a finalist. The Gripen is a non-contender. It won’t qualify. Third world fighter. As I mentioned, the RCAF favors the F-35. It is an aircraft that has been closely evaluated by other countries and has been successful in all competitions. 12 nations can’t be wrong. For interoperability with coalitions it is the answer. It is the aircraft that will give our aircrew the best chance to fight another day. If we remain in the program our aviation industry will continue to build components for every F-35 built worldwide. No brainer, F-35. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qn30jEkPz7 Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 48 minutes ago, Scooby said: 12 nations can’t be wrong Now there is some heartwarming optimism 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted August 13, 2020 Author Share Posted August 13, 2020 If Canada isn't in any hurry, they could wait for whatever replaces the F-22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Slater said: If Canada isn't in any hurry, they could wait for whatever replaces the F-22. Canada is in a hurry, our Hornets are old and tired. The F-35 is replacing the F-22, so to speak. Our political leader isn’t in a hurry. Edited August 14, 2020 by Scooby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 On 8/5/2020 at 2:49 AM, Dave Fleming said: Sounds like the same sort of farce they got into over the AW101/S-92. Incoming politician cancels order in big fanfare of 'saving money' then at a later date they are faced with ordering it again. I wonder if we will see the same desperation not to buy the original aircraft as we saw with the maritime helicopter contract We were getting 110% of our purchase price back in economic spin-off in the EH101 program, as we were going to build 10% of every EH-101 sold worldwide. We paid a 470 million dollar cancellation fee in 1993 and turned around and bought the same helicopters we already had on order, the SAR aircraft were part of that order. David Collenette made a statement in 1995, “no Sea King will fly past Jan 1, 1999.” We know how that worked out, retirement occurred in 2020. How do our politicians get away with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 On 8/12/2020 at 12:42 AM, upnorth said: If the two previous governments had done something meaningful to move the F-35 forward as far as Canada was concerned, it could have been far enough along that you might have seen RCAF pilots training on it alongside pilots from other NATO nations and Canadian insignia on F-35s before the current govenment got power instead of needless and redundant "competitions" for a new fighter. Yup, Harper had the opportunity to purchase. I think he thought he had a third term wrapped up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slater Posted August 14, 2020 Author Share Posted August 14, 2020 57 minutes ago, Scooby said: Canada is in a hurry, our Hornets are old and tired. The F-35 is replacing the F-22, so to speak. Our political leader isn’t in a hurry. The F-22's replacement is called (for the moment, at least) "Penetrating Counter Air". Current speculation is that it will have no vertical tails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimpyboy Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Slater said: Current speculation is that it will have no vertical tails. HECK YEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!!! https://www.vice.com/amp/en_in/article/kz4qey/romanian-engineers-have-created-a-fully-functional-flying-saucer-adifo https://fantastic-plastic.com/AvroProjectYPage.htm Edited August 14, 2020 by Blimpyboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qn30jEkPz7 Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 11 hours ago, Slater said: The F-22's replacement is called (for the moment, at least) "Penetrating Counter Air" That led down an interesting search rabbit hole https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/2019/09/16/the-us-air-forces-radical-plan-for-a-future-fighter-could-field-a-jet-in-5-years/ thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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