Hans Philipp's Bf 109F-4 wing topside pattern?

[Vlad]

I'm fully expecting the answer to be "your guess is as good as mine" but figured it's worth a stab for a bit of discussion.

 

I've just made a start on a Zvezda 1/48 Bf 109F-4 with the intention of doing Hans Philipp's machine. The aircraft is wearing a non-standard scheme tyical of JG.54. It's also quite well photographed so the side profiles are fine. However nothing really shows the pattern on the wings, except this one photo that catches the inner port wing. I can't even find any profiles of it. The only source of reference I can find is the 3D model of the aircraft in the PC flight simulator "Il2 Sturmovik - Battle of Stalingrad". I've attached it below. The game render is correct for the side profile and the bit of the inner port wing that is photographed, but I have no idea what references (if any) the game developers used for the rest of it.

 

Over to you for thoughts and comments 😉

 

 

[Touvdal]

There are several photoes of  this plane in "Die Jagdfliegerverbande der Deutchen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945" teil 9/III. on page 65-70

 

Cheers

Jes

[SimonT]

The 3D models looks wrong. On the photo the demarcation of the darker colour splits the flap in half-ish. The 3D models covers the whole flap and more.

[Crimea River]

Assuming that the pictures referred to by Touvdal don't contradict the following, I would suggest the possibility that the new colours were applied over the standard factory 74/75 using the same demarcations. The precedent is there as Paul Allen's tri-colour FW190A-5 was found to have used this technique on the wings after the restorers meticulously peeled back the layers of paint to the bare metal.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Crimea River

[Vlad]

On 8/2/2020 at 8:59 AM, Touvdal said:

There are several photoes of  this plane in "Die Jagdfliegerverbande der Deutchen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945" teil 9/III. on page 65-70

 

Cheers

Jes

 

No offense, but this type of answer is really unhelpful. That book is long out of print and is £70 to £100 second hand. If you own the book, and for whatever reason are unable or unwilling to offer a scan of the photos, you could at least provide a short verbal description of what they show. Even simply confirming or denying the 3D model accuracy would suffice.

 

20 hours ago, SimonT said:

The 3D models looks wrong. On the photo the demarcation of the darker colour splits the flap in half-ish. The 3D models covers the whole flap and more.

 

Are you referring to the photo I posted? The demarcation on the 3D model is halfway on the flap. In the photo only the main flap is down but the radiator flap is up/flush, so the demarcation is halfway down the main flap not the radiator flap. Look also at the position of the demarcation relative to the upper wing cross.

 

8 hours ago, Crimea River said:

Assuming that the pictures referred to by Touvdal don't contradict the following, I would suggest the possibility that the new colours were applied over the standard factory 75/76 using the same demarcations. The precedent is there as Paul Allen's tri-colour FW190A-5 was found to have used this technique on the wings after the restorers meticulously peeled back the layers of paint to the bare metal.

The photo I added to the opening post already contradics this, at least for the inner section of the port wing. I'm not aware of a standard factory pattern that has that shape of triangular block in the area of the port side flaps.

 

What you suggest is nevertheless plausible, and the starboard wing pattern on the 3D model resembles a Regensburg factory camouflage pattern (I don't have a Wrk.Nr. for this aircraft to check where it was built).

Edited August 3, 2020 by Vlad

[Touvdal]

1 hour ago, Vlad said:

No offense, but this type of answer is really unhelpful. That book is long out of print and is £70 to £100 second hand. If you own the book, and for whatever reason are unable or unwilling to offer a scan of the photos, you could at least provide a short verbal description of what they show. Even simply confirming or denying the 3D model accuracy would suffice.

It was a reference for you, if you had acces to the book trough a freind or simular, if you had there was no need for me make a post. But i can understand that you do not so i will make a scan later today.

 

Cheers

Jes

[SimonT]

2 hours ago, Vlad said:

Are you referring to the photo I posted? The demarcation on the 3D model is halfway on the flap. In the photo only the main flap is down but the radiator flap is up/flush, so the demarcation is halfway down the main flap not the radiator flap. Look also at the position of the demarcation relative to the upper wing cross.

Yes, you’re right, I mistook the flush radiator flap for the wing root so my brain shunted it all along.

[Vlad]

1 hour ago, Touvdal said:

It was a reference for you, if you had acces to the book trough a freind or simular, if you had there was no need for me make a post. But i can understand that you do not so i will make a scan later today.

 

Cheers

Jes

Apologies for my reaction, that would be much appreciated.

[Touvdal]

Ref pages

 

My interpretation of the colors udes by JG 54, is 2 greens, Normal RLM 70 (I use humbrol 91) and modified RLM 71 with some RLM 04 (I use Humbrol 30 + some 24)-

 

This is one of my Bf 109's

 

 

 

Cheers

Jes

Edited August 7, 2020 by Touvdal

[Vlad]

Thank you very much Jes!

 

There's so little to go on, but looking in particular at the wing leading edges, I can see sufficient correlation to support the scheme in the game 3D model. I will make some adjustments though, for example on the starboard wing it appears the colour demarcation returns to about mid-flap.

 

I agree with your colour interpretation but I assume you meant RLM 02 not 04 for the mix? I was planning to use Revell Aqua 40 for the RLM 70 and Revell Aqua 361 for the mixed/adjusted RLM 71.

[Touvdal]

On 8/3/2020 at 5:34 PM, Vlad said:

Thank you very much Jes!

 

There's so little to go on, but looking in particular at the wing leading edges, I can see sufficient correlation to support the scheme in the game 3D model. I will make some adjustments though, for example on the starboard wing it appears the colour demarcation returns to about mid-flap.

 

I agree with your colour interpretation but I assume you meant RLM 02 not 04 for the mix? I was planning to use Revell Aqua 40 for the RLM 70 and Revell Aqua 361 for the mixed/adjusted RLM 71.

 

No i mean RLM 04 that is yellow. mixed into the green RLM 71. 

 

My light green is a Humbol 30 + some 24 mix.

 

Cheers

Jes

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Touvdal

[Vlad]

Just now, Touvdal said:

 

No i mean RLM 04 that is yellow. mixed into the green RLM 71. 

 

My light green is a Humbol 30 + some 27 mix.

 

Cheers

Jes

 

 

 

That's what confused me, neither Humbrol 30 nor 27 are yellow or yellow-ish in any way. So you're saying you think the colour was green+yellow but mixing it with paints that are green and grey.

[Graham Boak]

From investigating a surviving Fw190 in Russian storage, Ken Merrick identified the JG54 colours as the prewar 61/62/63, which suggests that the example here is the prewar green, which is available in a number of paint ranges.

[Crimea River]

Good references. I edited my post to say 74/75 rather than 75/76 but the photos make my point moot anyway.

[fubar57]

8 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

From investigating a surviving Fw190 in Russian storage, Ken Merrick identified the JG54 colours as the prewar 61/62/63, which suggests that the example here is the prewar green, which is available in a number of paint ranges.

I do like that colour combination, thanks

[Touvdal]

13 hours ago, Vlad said:

 

That's what confused me, neither Humbrol 30 nor 27 are yellow or yellow-ish in any way. So you're saying you think the colour was green+yellow but mixing it with paints that are green and grey.

SORRY my bad 😴😴, i it is Humbrol 24 that is yellow.

 

So H30 + some H24

 

Cheers

Jes

Edited August 4, 2020 by Touvdal

[Vlad]

3 hours ago, Touvdal said:

SORRY my bad 😴😴, i it is Humbrol 24 that is yellow.

 

So H30 + some H24

 

Cheers

Jes

 

Hahaha! No worries was just looking for clarity. Your final colour looks good. In any case, if it was RLM 62 as @Graham Boak says, that's also a slightly yellowish green so either way I know what ballpark to aim for. Given uncertaintyand inconsistency I won't drive myself mad trying to mix something perfect, just pick whichever bottle I have that looks closest.

[Touvdal]

Regarding RLM 62, it was discontinued in 1938 as LDv 521/1 became standard (70/71/65), even though planes could be seen during the Polen campain in 61/62/63/65 was because planes delivered prior to LDv 521/1 retained there original paint.

 

I would say it is very unlikely that any of this old stock was availeble in Germany, and even less at units deep into Russian territory. Most likely color was mixed from what was in stock, so it was easy to mix any shade on of green or brown from that.

 

Cheers

Jes

[FalkeEins]

On 8/3/2020 at 11:16 AM, Vlad said:

 

 That book is long out of print and is £70 to £100 second hand. 

The publisher's website is http://jagdgeschwader.net

[Vlad]

Didn't want to start a new thread just wanted to revisit this with an additional question.

 

In all the photos shared, I can't see a lower demarcation for the fuselage side pattern, it seems to wrap under where the fuselage curves. What are the chances it meets in the middle? Or should there be at least a very thin strip of RLM 76 down the centerline of the underside of the fuselage?