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RAF Sky MAP colour origin?


GrahamB

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I was posting a reply yesterday after having read iang book, where I found several interesting information, when he replied himself... I had also gone through a good number of colour pictures, trying to find the oldest showing Sky and comparing them with more modern use of the colour (meaning mainly FAA and RAN postwar types). Still I felt that I was missing something and this was the chapter in AK's book. Now that I have read this I feel more confident,,.

There was not much new to me in this chapter, apart from the indication of the use of different formulas. However no mention is made of a change in the resulting colour and I read this as an indication that the author did not find any evidece on this. Knowing how thorough Millman is in his research, he would have mentioned a change in colour if he had found any evidence for this.

But what about Bowyer's observations ? There's a problem here that is common to all eyewitness observations (and to pictures too): an observation only accounts for whatever object is observed and if not used together with other information can not be used to determine a standard. The matter is not that people don't believe in what Bowyer saw, the matter is that we can't tell if what he saw was an indication of one thing or the other without having access to further information, I personally believe in Bowyer's observations, but what do they mean ? I believe that Bowyer saw a greener Sky used in the early days, but does this mean that the original standard for Sky was greener? Or did he witness the result of the confusion on the appearance of this new colour that most commands seem to have experienced ? The reality is that we don't know. Unless he had access to the MAP colour chips, he could not know what the standard was supposed to be so all we can learn from this observation is that some aircraft featured a greener Sky compared to the colour he saw on later aircraft. He may have simply seen the kind of hues that Lucas mentions in his findings. We know today that the confusion over the true colour of Sky led to the use of various blue-greens and even blues, maybe this is what he saw. Or maybe the original composition for Sky led to excessive variations and he witnessed one such variation, maybe this was one of the reason why the formula was later changed.

This does not mean that observations like Bowyer's are useless, they are on the contrary extremely useful. However they are even more useful when used together with the wealth of documentation we have today, part of which was not available during the war or immediatly later since it was only declassified in the '70s. Not that all these documents make things easy, the continuous mixing of colloquial and official names for example has likely led to a lot of confusion among researchers and modellers... there's a reason why I like the use of numbers in colour standards !

Personally I believe that, according to the information researchers have made available to us, the standard for Sky did not change during the war and that there was just one Sky. What did change was the application of the same colour, not only within the variations common to every colour (variations in production batches, different application methods etc) but also in the early lack of paint that led to a number of different interpretation of what the colour was supposed to look like and in the need to reproduce something for which only a basic description had been given.

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For the formula that was quoted containing 4% Yellow Oxide - would that be in paint or powder form ?   If it is paint, that does not seem like a large enough amount to give anything more than a tinted white - (assuming the base is white)?   The hint of Prussian Blue I can only guess the measure would be less than 1%.    Back to yellow oxide, my googling suggests this leans more towards the ocher family of colours.  So  if some fighter squadrons were taking it upon themselves during June/July 1940 to mix their own, and were relying on roundel paints, this could theoretically result in a brighter underside shade?

 

regards,

Jack

Edited by JackG
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I think that the RN must have mixed their own for 'pale sky blue'. Given that Ark Royal was at sea actively engaged in the Norway campaign when the order to change the undersurface colour was made, compliance would depend  on what was available in the ship's paint locker. Roundel Blue and white would have been available onboard. 

Edited by iang
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24 minutes ago, iang said:

I think that the RN must have mixed their own for 'pale sky blue'. Given that Ark Royal was at sea actively engaged in the Norway campaign when the order to change the undersurface colour was made, compliance would depend  on what was available in the ship's paint locker. Roundel Blue and white would have been available onboard. 

If they even bothered about changing the colours while being in combat at sea. Who would have cared?

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9 minutes ago, Vingtor said:

If they even bothered about changing the colours while being in combat at sea. Who would have cared?

Surprising, perhaps, but the undersurface colour of two squadrons of Skuas was changed to pale sky blue between 7 June and 13 June.

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I'd be inclined to say they went with the order from the Admiralty as sent. Just like the landlubber counterparts, no waiting for proper supplies to arrive..

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An interesting discussion, this stirs my memory to remember the late, great Alan Hall and his magazine "Scale Aircraft Modeling"(if I have the title incorrect, please let me know). When it started in the late '70's or so, one of the articles published/written in the first year, maybe the second, was on "Sky" and its actual color. I don't remember the writer of the article; but, he was known for his research on the paints and colors used on RAF and FAA aircraft. I do recall that it mentioned the 'duck's eggs' and the like. It did a great deal of correcting many of the early(50's and so) errors made by many at that time and later.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/3/2020 at 9:29 PM, JPuente54 said:

An interesting discussion, this stirs my memory to remember the late, great Alan Hall and his magazine "Scale Aircraft Modeling"(if I have the title incorrect, please let me know).....

In the Queen's English, the title was (and still is) Scale Aircraft Modelling....

As a regular reader of SAM, and doing research for my own articles, I had much interesting correspondence (by letter) with both Alan Hall and Ian Huntley.

 

Nils

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@Vingtor, thank you, you are correct; but, I fell back to how it's spelled here(USA). We use one 'l' in modeling while the UK uses two. G. B. shaw once said that we are two peoples divided by a common language(loose quotation). But, SAM does use two 'll's. It is very automatic so that's how it occurred. I am still recovering from a small stroke I had a year and a half ago. Again, thank you.

Joe

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