Fw190D-9 - underwing colours

[Ray_W]

2 minutes ago, Werdna said:

This is no longer a straightforward masking job...  

More research necessary. The starboard wing looks like some of the other D-9 images SD posted. What happened to the port wing? Replaced? Scrubbed back? Interesting.

[DaveWilko]

One remembers reading an article many years ago in a similar vein.

It was stated that camouflage colours were applied to the upper surfaces of the airframe and especially to the leading 

edges of the wing and tail surfaces for a simple reason.

 

German pilots had noted in particular,the un-camouflaged American fighters could be spotted at great distances

simply from the sun reflecting from their uncamouflaged/bare metal leading edges.

 

German pilots quickly learned to use this to their advantage either to achieve a better attacking position on the American

fighters,or to evade them and concentrate on attacking the bomber formation.

 

Dave

[Werdna]

1 minute ago, Ray_W said:

More research necessary. The starboard wing looks like some of the other D-9 images SD posted. What happened to the port wing? Replaced? Scrubbed back? Interesting.

 Agreed - although there seems to be enough evidence here to support representing the wing undersurfaces differently...?

[SafetyDad]

6 minutes ago, Werdna said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on this pic here https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/messerschmitt-bf-109/bf109-wings-on-railway-flatcar/  (caption says Bf109 wings, but consensus is Fw190 I think)

 

Appears to show Fw190 (not sure if 'D' or not) wings on a flatbed rail wagon - if the wings were supplied as single (and by the looks of it, pre-painted) sub assemblies, is it odd that two wings on the same a/c would differ in the way that the above pics suggest..?  

I was looking for just this picture earlier!! I knew it would add to the debate.

Yep. Single piece.

 

Perhaps 2 blokes painting - one on each side? Take that idea with a pinch of salt as  I don't usually speculate about Luftwaffe paint finishes as there's too much of that already!

 

 

 

SD 

[Graham Boak]

Different subcontractors?  Painted at different times by different individuals?  

[Rolls-Royce]

I recently read something - can't remember the source - that stated that the dark-colored wing leading edge undersides and gear doors on the otherwise NMF-with-76 wings was for purposes of ground concealment. The contrast between dark upper surfaces and bare metal or 76 undersides of leading edges as well as gear doors could be seen by attacking Allied pilots, increasing the risk of attack to the planes in their revetments.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Rolls-Royce

[SafetyDad]

14 hours ago, Rolls-Royce said:

I recently read something - can't remember the source - that stated that the dark-colored wing leading edge undersides and gear doors on the otherwise NMF-with-76 wings was for purposes of ground concealment. The contrast between dark upper surfaces and bare metal or 76 undersides of leading edges as well as gear doors could be seen by attacking Allied pilots, increasing the risk of attack to the planes in their revetments.

Yes. The link posted by @Kari Lumppioon p1 to TOCH explores this rationale in detail - it makes a lot of sense. 

But Kari's suggestion of filler paste is new to me - that also seems to have merit

 

SD

[Rolls-Royce]

3 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Yes. The link posted by @Kari Lumppioon p1 to TOCH explores this rationale in detail - it makes a lot of sense. 

But Kari's suggestion of filler paste is new to me - that also seems to have merit

 

SD

It wasn't on the TOCH forum, since I don't participate there. It likely was in the Merrick volume mentioned in the referenced thread.

[Tail-Dragon]

This was my interpretation, based on an 'Experten" decals set ...

 

 

[fishplanebeer]

Dear All,

 

Not directly relevant in terms of the Fw190-D colours but just a quick general thought/observation.

 

For many years the Bf109E-4 of Franz von Verra was utterly misinterpreted in terms of its nose cowling colour with many decal sheets and models showing it as being white, where as in fact it was the standard RLM blue and camouflage colours of the period. It just looked lighter due to lighting, proximity to the camera given film and lens technology at the time, and possibly it even being a fresh/new item fitted.

 

Assessing tonal values from b&w photos is always fraught so my only advice is that if it looks right and fits with the accepted understanding of what was used at the time then nobody can pick  holes or criticise with any degree of conviction or certainty. Unlike all those poor souls who have built the Von Werra machine with a white cowling!

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. I see Airfix still think the cowling is white which is rather surprising

[Werdna]

Hi Colin - I agree about the interpretation of colours, but really I was just enquiring about the 'method' of painting 190D undersides, rather than the colours themselves.   I hadn't heard the Von Werra story before, but there is a Hannants decal sheet which depicts a 109G-10 with a white rudder, but when looking at the period pic from which the scheme seems to have been taken, it's obvious that the rudder is just turned slightly, so therefore reflecting more light..  

[MDriskill]

On 7/30/2020 at 1:39 PM, SafetyDad said:

... in the meantime I found this of Fw 190A8 'Yellow 14' at Neubiburg in 1945. 

 

 

The USAF chap is obviously looking at the wing underside painting and thinking 'That's going to cause concern for modellers in the future'. 

 

Actually, there's a lot to be learned from this. Look at the wing ETC bomb racks - half painted in 76 and the rear portion bare metal. The fuselage underside seems to be bare metal as well. Elevators might be painted but tailplanes seem not to be.

 

Yellow 14 is well represented on decal sheets so worth looking for that and perhaps as a wider late war example of painting practice at Fw.

Veering a bit off-topic, but thanks for posting this photo! It's probably the best picture of late-war Fw 190's undersides I've ever seen (I opened this thread with the notion of posting it myself, LOL). The detail clarity is amazing (taken with a Leica camera I'd wager), and if you look closely there is really quite an astonishing number of different things going on with the finish.

 

"Yellow 14" is not a Focke Wulf-built A-8, but an Arado-built F-8, serial 584592, thought to have been attached to SG 2 or SG 10. As noted, well-documented elsewhere, and one source of decals is the Eduard 1/72 F-8 Profipack kit.

 

Arado did not contribute to the Fw 190D program so I won't obsess further over details here...

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by MDriskill

[SafetyDad]

20 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

Veering a bit off-topic, but thanks for posting this photo! It's probably the best picture of late-war Fw 190's undersides I've ever seen (I opened this thread with the notion of posting it myself, LOL). The detail clarity is amazing (taken with a Leica camera I'd wager), and if you look closely there is really quite an astonishing number of different things going on with the finish.

 

"Yellow 14" is not a Focke Wulf-built A-8, but an Arado-built F-8, serial 584592, thought to have been attached to SG 2 or SG 10. As noted, well-documented elsewhere, and one source of decals is the Eduard 1/72 F-8 Profipack kit.

 

Arado did not contribute to the Fw 190D program so I won't obsess further over details here...

 

Thanks for this - I knew it was an F-8 but I posted as A-8 - my apologies. Yes, its a really clear pic (I agree with you about the Leica) and there's a load going on as you say. For example the 76 'borderline' along the middle of the wing and the 'spots' (perhaps corrosion proofing?). 

 

And I wasn't aware of Arado not contributing to the 'D' programme, so my comments about indicative painting don't apply.

Thanks again

SD

[MDriskill]

On 7/30/2020 at 2:32 PM, Kari Lumppio said:

I still hold the opinion that the half painted chord (leading edge) on Fw 190 wings was aerodynamic filler.

 

This debate was done at TOCH forum years ago (Half painted Fw 190 wing undersides - the purpose?  http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=3916&highlight=fw+190+half+painted ).

Please do not continute the discussion in the TOCH thread as one major contirubutor is already deceased.

 

Kari, this is a really outstanding discussion! Many thanks for posting the link, very interesting and duly added to my Fw 190 reference file.

 

I've often had the very same thought - that this paint may have been applied for much the same reason that we modelers use a primer coat - to check for smoothness of the finish, and then correct as necessary. For typical WW2 wings, smooth airflow over the front 1/3 was critical.

 

A follow-on thought - here are well-known but interesting photos of a WFG-built JG 2 machine, taken from Jerry Crandall's "Focke Wulf Fw 190 Dora," vol. 1. Note the span-wise dark streak on top of the wing.

 

I might speculate the painting sequence here was:

1. Dark camouflage color applied to the entire upper wing, and wrapped around under the leading edge (both JaPo's and Mr. Crandall's books make very convincing arguments that the darker camo color was applied first. The opposite of what a modeler would typically do!).

2. A second application of putty and/or paint - addressing faults revealed by in the initial painting? - was applied, creating the dark streak.

3. The lighter camo color was applied last. Note how the dark streak appears to go OVER the darker camo color, but UNDER the lighter one.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by MDriskill

[MDriskill]

7 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Thanks for this - I knew it was an F-8 but I posted as A-8 - my apologies. Yes, its a really clear pic (I agree with you about the Leica) and there's a load going on as you say. For example the 76 'borderline' along the middle of the wing and the 'spots' (perhaps corrosion proofing?). 

 

And I wasn't aware of Arado not contributing to the 'D' programme, so my comments about indicative painting don't apply.

Thanks again

SD

Thanks! Late-war 190 camo is one my many minor modeling side obsessions, LOL.

 

Here is another image, from Jerry Crandall's outstanding "Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora," vol. 1. Although a little faded, the painting actually looks quite similar to the F-8 image in some ways. Note especially how the inner rear section of the wing looks to be a darker color than the (obviously bare metal) outer section. You can also see similar pale 76 "touch-up" spots, which are the pivot points for the aileron and flap control linkages, I believe.

 

The 500 series machines noted in the caption were built by Mimetall (abbreviated MME), and the 600 series by Gerhard Fieseler Werke (GFW). The other two D-9 manufacturers were Focke-Wulf (FW, 210 series) and Arbeitgemeinschaft Weserflug (WFG, 400 series; also known as Arb. "Roland"). So - pure speculation here - the F-8 photo may be more relevant than you think; maybe the wing sub-contractor was the same.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by MDriskill

[MDriskill]

On 7/30/2020 at 3:01 PM, Werdna said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on this pic here https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/messerschmitt-bf-109/bf109-wings-on-railway-flatcar/  (caption says Bf109 wings, but consensus is Fw190 I think)

 

Appears to show Fw190 (not sure if 'D' or not) wings on a flatbed rail wagon - if the wings were supplied as single (and by the looks of it, pre-painted) sub assemblies, is it odd that two wings on the same a/c would differ in the way that the above pics suggest..?  

Thanks for this link, what a fascinating shot. These are definitely Fw 190 wings (BTW, the pic made more sense when I figured out that the indicated areas belong to another wing sitting just behind it!).

 

The wings have the wheel well "roofs" which would indicate they were intended for radial-engined 190's (the D omitted these). BUT...I don't see the "flat bulge" over the outer gun bay upper skin openings, which was standard for late A and F variants (replaced by a small plate directly covering the opening on the D).

 

Another interesting detail is that the wing underside in the background appears to be fully painted.

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by MDriskill

[Werdna]

56 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

And it made a lot more sense when I figured out that the indicated areas belong to another wing sitting behind it, LOL!

It took me a while to figure that out too..!  Thought I was seeing double until I realised there were two wing sets on each wagon..  

 

To me, one of the most interesting things about this pic is the 'symmetrical' camo pattern - ie the pattern is effectively mirrored on each side, which I hadn't seen before.  Can only guess at the colours, but there's plenty of discussion around on whether it might be 75/77 or 81/76(or 84).  Who knows...

 

Rightly or wrongly (with about as much certainty as this subject gets), I've decided to use this pattern on the wings of my D-9, so we'll see how it turns out  

[SafetyDad]

9 minutes ago, Werdna said:

It took me a while to figure that out too..!  Thought I was seeing double until I realised there were two wing sets on each wagon..  

 

To me, one of the most interesting things about this pic is the 'symmetrical' camo pattern - ie the pattern is effectively mirrored on each side, which I hadn't seen before.  Can only guess at the colours, but there's plenty of discussion around on whether it might be 75/77 or 81/76(or 84).  Who knows...

 

Rightly or wrongly (with about as much certainty as this subject gets), I've decided to use this pattern on the wings of my D-9, so we'll see how it turns out  

I would suggest 75/77. David Brown has recently made a very convincing argument for the use of 77 as an uppersurface colour, using the example of the well-known Fw190A-8 'Brown 6' Wk Nr.175140 of 7/JG/26. 

 

SD

[Werdna]

Thanks SD - I did go for 75/77.  It's looking a bit 'stark' at the moment, but it will likely tone down a bit once the weathering and panel lining is on....(he says, hopefully)  

[Vonbraun]

There is surviving Telex messaging between Focke Wulf and the RLM (Travemünde Test Center) regarding the implementation of the trial elimination of camouflage paint on the undersurfaces of 50 Fw 190s to be conducted at the Focke Wulf Sorau factory.  These communications clearly indicate that it is only the camouflage paint that is to be eliminated.  Focke Wulf states that metal surfaces will be primed with 119D primer provided by Warnecke & Böhm.  Additionally shade 76 is to be applied to tail surfaces finished in red dope and to any wooden components on the wing and fuselage undersides.