Costal command Liberator

[magman2]

Were all the the 0.50 US machine guns,

replaced with British.303 MGS

on Costal Command Liberators?🤔

[Work In Progress]

Depends. The GR.1 had .303, but also a forward-firing 4x20mm cannon fit.

Don't know about the GR.V

.50 on the GR.VI and GR.VIII

Some guns were deleted altogether - for example ball turrets tended to be deleted.

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

Early ones yes, later ones no.  Which version are you interested in?

[EwenS]

Not so simple unfortunately.

 

GR.I/II - 0.303” but only 11/10 respectively were converted for Coastal Command.

 

GR.Mk.III/ V - Martin dorsal turret with 2*0.5” when fitted. Often removed to save weight on squadrons operating over the Mid-Atlantic. Beam mounts in early aircraft were enclosed twin 0.303” but single 0.5” later. Tail could be either a Consolidated turret with 2*0.5” or a Boulton Paul turret with 4*0.303”. Mk.III with ASV II aerials. Retractable Radar in place of belly turrets on later Mk.V but “Dumbo” under nose radome on earlier airframes.

 

Mk.IIIA - retained US guns and turrets but only 11 with LV*** serials.

 

GR.Mk.VI - most with 0.5” but those in Coastal Command with BZ*** (20 airframes) and at least some EV*** serials received Boulton Paul tail turrets with 4*0.303”. Radar in retractable belly radome.

 

Mk.VIII - is the easiest with 0.5” throughout. But they did not begin to arrive on Coastal Command squadrons until late 1944 (Oct  or Nov IIRC)

 

I did some analysis on weapons fits a couple of years ago but can’t access it just now. The Mark III/V have the greatest variability  in weapon fits as they were in service from mid-1942 until the end of the war. Weapon fits on individual aircraft could vary over time. For example dorsal turrets were removed and then refitted in some squadrons depending on where they operated and the threat. Same with Leigh Lights and rocket rails.

 

I would emphasise the above is a very brief outline. Narrowing down the aircraft or even the squadron would help.

[Scott Hemsley]

^{If you're including the Liberators of the RCAF's Eastern Air Command in your definition of Coastal Command, the ones responsible for all those long-range convoy escorts from Canada to the UK, then the answer is quite simple … the US. armament was retained.}

 

^Scott

[magman2]

Thank You,  EwenS  for your help and information and for pointing me, in the right direction regarding the Liberator GR MK.5

[rossm]

GR.V also usually had a 0.5" gun in the nose glazing.

[dogsbody]

Here's something from author Carl Vincent:

 

" At the risk of being overly specific I attach five photos showing what appears to be the prototype installation in the nose of an RAF Coastal Command Liberator GR III. Although I copied them from an RCAF file 46 years ago, they are RAF photos supplied to the RCAF as references for the nose set-up in that service’ s Liberator GR V (Can.)’s. Hopefully, they may be of some use or, at least, interest. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[72modeler]

@dogsbody

Jeez, Louise, Chris-those are some amazing photos! Thank you so much for sharing them! 

Mike

[dogsbody]

16 hours ago, 72modeler said:

@dogsbody

Jeez, Louise, Chris-those are some amazing photos! Thank you so much for sharing them! 

Mike

 

Thanks to Carl for sending them to me and asking me to post them.

 

 

 

Chris

[magman2]

This is a Great photo from the IWM collection, showing weathering on the nose frame  windows 

 

Net Photo (IWM)

[EwenS]

Note the lack of the nose gun in that aircraft. Just shows the variability of the armament in these aircraft.

[dogsbody]

More intel from Carl.

 

" 

As my good friend Chris has, once again, agreed to post a few remarks and photos on my behalf, I have turned up material that may be of interest.. I hope that this will not be viewed as long-winded overkill or galloping irrelevancy, particularly as it concerns the RCAF rather than RAF Coastal Command. While it only concerns the armament variations of the RCAF’s 15 Liberator GR V (Can.)’s, I believe that it is a nearfetched assumption that Coastal Command’s variations would be just as numerous if not more so.

Due to the unlikelihood of encountering aerial opposition and the necessity of obtaining maximum range in the face of the winds in the western North Atlantic (apparently considerably stronger than in the east), weight reduction meant that up to the end of 1943 the gun armament was reduced to the mid-upper Martin turret and the port waist gun. Despite the information available to install the nose gun (see my earlier posting) this was not done until early 1944. The last two of the GR V (Can.)’s delivered had retractable ventral radomes instead of the chin radome’s of the first 13. It was found that when lowered this reduced performance and range sufficiently to make its replacement by the chin radome desirable. In addition, they sported a low-mounted nose gun which was dispensed with immediately.

The use of the mid-upper turret in the flak suppression role had its problems because, when fired forward at maximum depression, not only might the blast damage aerials but on occasion it caved in the roof of the cockpit. The final expedient to cure this was the fitting of muzzle attachments to deflect some of the blast upwards. There is much more that could be said on all of these matters but, herewith, the photos.

1.         The nose as it appeared during operations up to very late 1943.

2.         The installation of the nose gun as it appeared from early 1944 on.

3.         The last of the Lib GR V (Can.)’s as delivered with ventral radome and low-mounted nose gun.

4.         The same aircraft as the end of the war with a chin radome and nose gun.

5.         For most of the war these aircraft were not operated with guns in the tail turret. A feature of the GR V (Can.)’s was the tail turret taken directly from US stocks and retaining its OD finish.

6.         The Martin mid-upper turret with what I presume are the blast-suppression muzzle attachments.

7.         A posed photos showing both waist guns. Usually only the port one was carried, presumably because it would be the one to bear in a standard attack. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

 

[magman2]

The later retractable Rocket configuration. I think this modification was only fitted to the MK.V , but if any one knows if it was fitted in the later versions Please share the Information.

Eduard make this set in 1/72 

 

 

  

 

Net Photos

[Carl V]

As far as retractable rocket rails were concerned, some of the RCAF's Liberator GR VI's were certainly so equipped as well as some GR V's.  It would seem possible that this would also be the case for Coastal Command.

[EwenS]

GR.VI only started arriving in the U.K. in Nov 1943 and the first squadron to get any was 311 in Feb 1944 which received 9 aircraft none of which were fitted with rockets. These were in the BZ and EV serial batches. They were withdrawn between May and July 1944 and replaced with GR.V from early deliveries that had been recycled through SAL to have rockets fitted.

 

Then between Jan and Mar 1945 the GR.V were replaced by GR.VI fitted with Leigh Lights. None of these aircraft had rockets. These were one BZ serialled aircraft with the rest being EV, EW and KG serials.

 

There is a note that 311’s retractable rocket projectors were removed from their aircraft from 22 Dec 1944 through Jan 1944 1945.

 

What needs to be taken into account is the changing nature of the U-boat war. From about May to Sept 1943 U-boats were fighting it out with aircraft on the surface for which the rocket was a useful weapon. But it seems to have been a daylight weapon requiring delivery in a shallow dive. That was 311’s main role in early 1944 - daylight over the Bay of Biscay.  Relatively few of 311’s GR.V aircraft got both LL and rockets and those were after May 1944. 

 

Diving at the sea at night is not conducive to a long life. Use of the LL involved a low level radar directed approach and turning on the light just before the final attack. So use of the two pieces of kit together seems incompatible to me.

 

Snorkels began to be fitted to U-boats in early 1944 and by D-Day half of the French based U-boat fleet was so fitted and that percentage increased from then on. The chances of finding U-boats on the surface in daylight therefore decreased and along with it the utility of rockets.

 

Also from looking at the aircraft histories a lot of the EV serialed GR.VI went to the Far East. From April 1944, those squadrons receiving GR.VI in Coastal Command also seemed to be getting LL equipped aircraft.

 

Never say never, but I think it highly unlikely that any GR.VI reached operational Coastal Command squadrons equipped with the retractable rocket fit. Maybe the odd test aircraft. So that is the challenge. Someone produce a photo of a GR.VI with rockets!

 

My focus in the above is on 311 simply because I have a book in the library with very detailed appendices detailing the fit of each aircraft that served with the squadron, backed up with plenty of photos.

 

“B-24 Liberator in RAF Coastal Command Service with focus on Aircraft of No.311 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF” by Patel Türk and Miloslav Pajer.

Edited July 31, 2020 by EwenS

[EwenS]

Re the Canadian GR.V “The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth service” notes the following

 

598 was delivered with the belly radome as per the photo above, and converted between 10/43 and 2/44 to the Dumbo nose.

592 flew to SAL at Prestwick on 5/1/44 for fitment of RP (presumably retractable) and LL. On return to Canada in Feb it took another seven sets of retractable RP equipment.

 

Of the 38 GR.VI delivered only 8 were delivered between Dec 1943 and July 1944. The last few along with most of the 16 GR.VIII delivered in 1945 saw no operational service. So if any were rocket equipped I reckon they would be in those first 8 - 3705 to 3712. CarlV - any photos?

 

3713 after delivery at Dorval on 3/8/44 went to 21 Sub Repair Depot for Leigh Light installation on 12/9/44.

 

It seems clear that the RP conversions were being carried out by SAL in Britain (subject to the 7 sets referred to above) and not at the US modification centres prior to delivery of the aircraft to the RAF at Dorval in Canada.

[rossm]

45 minutes ago, EwenS said:

There is a note that 311’s retractable rocket projectors were removed from their aircraft from 22 Dec 1944 through Jan 1944.

Do you mean Jan 45 ?

 

I've a lot of interest in rocket armed Liberator's as I want to build one flown from St.Eval - either Terence Bulloch's or Kenneth Moore's but the 224 Squadron ORB gives armament loads for each sortie and rockets stop appearing early in 1944 - sorry, I haven't yet been through it in enough detail to make notes on definite dates. The entry for Moore's double U=boat kill on 7/8 June 1944 lists the armament as "12 x 250lb, 1 x Procter" - presumably the latter is the code name for the then secret homing torpedo. I've the Aviaeology sheet for Moore's aircraft and either that or correspondence with @Terry @ Aviaeology threw up that Moore didn't use his rockets that night as he was afraid of ruining his night vision - yet now I've checked the ORB it seems possible/probable he didn't have rockets that night.

 

The likely reason for the removal of rockets is given in Terry Bulloch’s biography as being the tendency for overstressing the high aspect ratio wings while pulling out of the necessary diving attack.

 

There was an article on modelling the retractable installation in one of the magazines a few years ago, when I find it I'll post details.

[EwenS]

Yes 1945. I’ve corrected my post. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

From what I can see there is a lot of shuffling of aircraft around between the various Liberator squadrons in early 1944. It seems to me to represent a change from them being jack of all trades with an armament fit to match, to being more dedicated to a night or day role.

 

interesting about 224. The 311 book notes that 224 got its first external RP aircraft in June 1943 - BZ721/R used by Bulloch to sink U514. More followed. But by 1/1/44 it only had a single RP equipped Lib which it supposedly kept until Sept (but it had no Dumbo nosed Libs after Feb 1944). In Dec 1943 it had started to return its Dumbo nosed ASG-1 radar equipped Libs for ASG-3 belly radar equipped GR.V with Leigh Light but no rockets.

 

It used the Mk.24 mine, usually referred to as Fido, actually an acoustic homing torpedo from July 1943 which its ORB refers to as 600lb DC.

 

Then at the end of May 1944 224 began to receive GR.VI with ASG-3 and LL. In July it began to use sonobuoys. By mid Sept it had 15 GR.VI and 3 GR.V. The latter were all gone by Nov when it began to receive GR.VIII with AN/APS-15 Radar better able to detect snorkels. By March 1945 all the GR.VI had been replaced with GR.VIII.

[dogsbody]

CArl has asked me to post this for him. 

 

" Once again, retractable rocket rails. The information supplied by Ewen is accurate as far as the installation is concerned. As far as I can tell, only six were actually installed, three in 10 (BR)’s GR V (Can.)’s and three in 11 (BR)’s GR VI’s. The latter unit converted from Hudsons in the summer of 1944 and was exclusively equipped with GR VI’s with the exception of a single B-24 D “Brazilian Lib.” It operated these from Dartmouth until May 1945 when it was transferred to WAC.

            I have, alas, no photos of these aircraft, at least with the rocket rails lowered. I believe that somewhere I have their identities but I doubt that I will ever be able to relocate it. I attach a scan of a page from my 1976 book on the RCAF Liberators and Fortresses which may give some of the flavour of the use of these weapons. "

 

 

 

 

I've added this drawing from Carl's book.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[magman2]

Another photo of the retractable Rocket rails, under the rear bomb bay of a Coastal Command Liberator.

(Net Photo) 

[EwenS]

That is GR.V BZ717 in the markings of 59 squadron 1-X, which it left at the end of Dec. Probably taken while at SAL for the fitting of the rocket rails in Jan/Feb 1944 and shortly before being allotted to 311 squadron on 6th March where it became aircraft L. Flew into a stuffed cloud on 13 July 1944.

 

Note the lack of ASV.II aerial on the nose and the missing dorsal turret. Also the window in the waist indicates it was fitted with the British FN.55 mounting which carried 2*0.303” MG.

 

In addition to the rockets it usually carried 8*250lb depth charges in the forward bomb bay.

[magman2]

I found this, from facfa.com  regarding weapons load for the Liberator Coastal Command. Machine guns  and weapons depending on the Mark of Liberator.

Nine machine guns:
Without Leigh Light:
10 x 250 lb depth charges or
5 x 250 lb depth charges and 2 Mk. 24 mines or
5 x 250 lb depth charges and 2 600 lb A/S bombs
With Leigh light:
8 x 250 lb depth charges
With Leigh Light and Rocket Projectiles:
16 x 25 lb Rocket Projectiles and 5 250 lb depth charges, or
16 x 25 lb Rocket Projectiles and 1 Mk 24 mine and 3 250 lb depth charges

[EwenS]

If only it were that simple. CC HQ issued instructions about Liberator fits in May 1943 (5 pages) and then again in Nov 1943 (7 pages) that cover gun and other weapon fits, fuel tank and other fits required for LR and VLR aircraft. The above bears some relationship to the Long Range fit from Nov that also appeared as part of a document in “The RAF in the Maritime War, Vol 4”. It was made more complicated as aircraft needed to be modified to those standards and this needed time to happen.

 

If there is interest I can try to summarise the various documents.

[magman2]

19 hours ago, EwenS said:

If only it were that simple. CC HQ issued instructions about Liberator fits in May 1943 (5 pages) and then again in Nov 1943 (7 pages) that cover gun and other weapon fits, fuel tank and other fits required for LR and VLR aircraft. The above bears some relationship to the Long Range fit from Nov that also appeared as part of a document in “The RAF in the Maritime War, Vol 4”. It was made more complicated as aircraft needed to be modified to those standards and this needed time to happen.

 

If there is interest I can try to summarise the various documents.

Yes please that would be helpful 

Thank You