2 seat Spitfires in 1/72

[davebruce]

Morning,

  I'm wanting to build a 2 seat spitfire in 1/72 for my brother who got to fly one last year for his 50th out of Headcorn in Kent. The problem is that I have this....

 

 

 

 

I have this in the stash, no idea why there is 2 kits in the box but it seems like it would be a nightmare to build as it has raised panel lines not enough glass for one of the kits and im not entirely sure that the shape is right. 

Does anyone have any experience with this kit?

Would another canopy from another model fit i.e from airfix with a little modification? or would I be better off maybe converting a single seat spitfire to make a dual seat one if thats possible? Ive searched the net but can't seem to find another 2 seat kit available so any help would be great.

 

Regards

 

Dave.

[PLC1966]

I think your answer is to stash the kit you have and buy an AZ Models Spitfire TR 9. The fuselage is already done.  Job jobbed.

[Graham Boak]

There are/have been a number of conversions (see Brigade models), but to the true trainer Spitfires with a raised rear canopy whereas this kit is the only one ever produced of the Russian variant.  The first modern variant with the low repeat canopy was Nick Grace's, but the front cockpit was moved forward and I suspect that this is also true of other examples which have followed.  I don't know of any kit conversion for these, you would have to study photos and try it for yourself.

 

I had this kit, only one in the box, and it is basically a poor copy of the Matchbox kit with its flaws but presumably the front canopy would be readily replacable.

 

Re PCL1966's posting which just overlapped - this is the raised cockpit version.  So which one did your brother fly in?  You may be lucky.

[davebruce]

Brilliant @PLC1966 that illuded my search, that looks alot better thank you. I was not looking forward to trying to scribe those panel lines. 

[davebruce]

@Graham Boak thanks for the info. This is him in the rear..

 

So the AZ Models one should be good for that correct?

[modelldoc]

The polish kit is anightmare!

 

I used a FROG / NOVO Spitfire to make this russian conversion.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/49569317176/in/photolist-2jp8Bm4-2jhVZSQ-2iwgH2A-2iqNLw5-2iBCabj-2hAPHx6-2hWdhrk-2jdRQYu-2ifndLU-2ik66Rd-2hGZciN-2i9UUUn-2hxfPBP-2iJcmFD-2htWrHE-2hPdZhW-reMoPf-qkj9AD-qkj23T-reMgJd

 

The other two seater  are different.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16564866596/in/photolist-2jp8Bm4-2jhVZSQ-2iwgH2A-2iqNLw5-2iBCabj-2hAPHx6-2hWdhrk-2jdRQYu-2ifndLU-2ik66Rd-2hGZciN-2i9UUUn-2hxfPBP-2iJcmFD-2htWrHE-2hPdZhW-reMoPf-qkj9AD-qkj23T-reMgJd-pc5Sua-oQtbML-ny3Ayb-q9y77U-97HHsS-qqWnoi

 

modelldoc

[malpaso]

Yes i built the Dutch markings AZ version, but they've recently done a warbird boxing, not sure if it includes DBE. 

AZ also did (do?) a Soviet UTI version, much nicer than that prehistoric kit noted by the OP.  One could paint it up as a "Grace" but the pilot seats are further apart than an UTI, as Supermarine TRs had the cockpit moved 13.5" forward which the Soviets didn't.

Brigade models also do a conversion kit for the TR9 but it's more expensive than the considerably better AZ! 

[davebruce]

Cheers guys. I think I'll put that old kit away, bury it in the back of the stash and get the AZ models version, thanks for all the input. 

 

Dave.

[alt-92]

Unfortunately, the AZ TR.9 is very hard to obtain nowadays.

I'm willing to pay for a rare kit, but when the auction goes for 3x list price...

 

[Work In Progress]

If you are happy putting in the extra hours to scratch-build then fine. 

But it's hardly unusual for an out of  production kit to sell for three times what it originally cost new. Quite normal really. It only reflects the extent to which a lot of people would rather have the kit than scratch-build.

[alt-92]

Just now, Work In Progress said:

It only reflects the extent to which a lot of people would rather have the kit than scratch-build.

True. 

That was the starting point for the bidding. I think it went for around 80 eventually.

[Work In Progress]

Blimey, maybe I should sell mine

[Graham Boak]

It depends then just how good a model you want.  If you are just after something representative then you could combine a Brigade fuselage with the Lotnia airframe, and if they don't x-kit then chop the Lotnia fuselage to take the Brigade transparencies.  How fussy are you and your brother?

[Work In Progress]

The Brigade conversion (I have one of those too) was produced on the assumption that you will use an Italeri IX as the base kit, probably because it came out in 2005 before the much superior new-tool Airfix kit became the cheap 1/72 Spit IX to have in 2009. At least the Italieri kit is not expensive, and less problematic if you're ditching the fuselage.

[Work In Progress]

EDITED FOR COMPLETENESS 

To add some context to this and ensure we all know what the full size examples are that we're talking about.

The Lotnia kit, whiile impressively crude, is not fundamentally inaccurate because it is not a model of any kind of factory-built Spitfire trainer. It is an attempt at reproducing a locally-hacked-about wartime Russian aeroplane in which they put another cockpit in the back but didn't change a great deal else. 

 

Every actual Supermarine Spitfire trainer is post-war and they are all designated new types, Supermarine Type 502 and 509.  However, they were all converted from existing surplus airframes. (This is very much the cousin of the way Hawker made vast numbers of new Hunters of new marks out of old Hunters of old marks.) The RAF never bought the two-seat Spitfire as it had no real interest by the time they were available.

 

Every Spitfire trainer in the modern world follows this pattern: The front cockpit is moved forward at the expense of fuselage fuel capacity, and a new smaller, more cramped cockpit put in the back, but a lot less far back than the Russian UTI had it.

 

G-AIDN was the first, a private venture by Vickers-Supermarine in 1946 to see if there was a market for such a thing. The one and only Supermarine Type 502, it used the core airframe of the former F.VIII MT818 which they'd bought back from the Air Ministry as surplus in 1945.  There were then:

- ten Type 509 for India, converted from surplus IX airframes, delivered in 1948.

- three for the Netherlands (thanks @alt-92) marked as H-97, H-98 and H-99, also in 1948, out of IX airframes.

- six Type 509 in 1952 for Ireland, again converted from surplus IX airframes

- one further private-venture Supermarine demonstrator, G-ALJM, built out of a IX, which was eventually sold to Egypt.

- some evidence of a second IX conversion for Egypt, as mentioned here: https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/73943-spitfire-tr?p=1697753

 

In addition to the factory-produced trainers there are also a small number of non-factory post-war restoration/conversions: these are all based on IX airframes and the one Dave wants to model is one of these, G-CICK, the aircraft having being simultaneously re-created and converted between 2011 and 2017 to the pattern of a Type 509, on the basis of an original single-seat IX, NH341.

 

The factory two-seaters all had the elevated pattern of rear canopy as per the two AZ kits, and G-CICK. It's not the prettiest thing but is practical. The well-known Grace Spitfire, G-LFIX, is a factory two-seat conversion based on the surplus airframe of IX ML407. It is an ex Irish Air Force airframe. But when Nick Grace restored it, he did not follow the factory two-seater canopy design, preferring a less obtrusive line. So the Grace Spitfire looks superficially similar to the wartime Russian UTI, but it's not the same at all.  Unlike the Russian UTI, both cockpits are in the factory trainer locations, as they are for all other currently extant two-seat Spitfires. This makes it arguably prettier but less usable, especially for actual flight training.

 

Another factory two-seater, now registered G-CCCA, formerly G-TRIX, was an Irish-contract factory-conversion from single-seat IX PV202. It was rebuilt with the Grace Spitfire type of low rear canopy modification in the 1980s. It was flown like that for ten years but following a fatal accident in 2000 (in which the AAIB inquiry cited the poor visibility from the rear cockpit as a contributory factor) it was subsequently rebuilt and put back to the proper factory trainer configuration, in which state it reappeared in the mid 2000s, and continues to fly. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Work In Progress

[qn30jEkPz7]

2 hours ago, alt-92 said:

True. 

That was the starting point for the bidding. I think it went for around 80 eventually.

Flamin’ Nora - I got one reasonably priced via the wanted pages early this year. I may have accidentally underpaid considerably

[alt-92]

23 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

There were then ten Type 509 for India, converted from surplus IX airframes, delivered in 1948. The Irish then bought another six Type 509 in 1952, again converted from surplus IX airframes.

Also three Dutch ones (hence the interest). Marked as H-97, H-98 and H-99.

MK715 was written off in a crash with one fatality. 
Later, BS147 was also in service with Schreiner Aero in bright orange serving as a target tug (PH-NFN). Mishaps and crashes made the RLD put an end to CoA's for Spits.

[davebruce]

2 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

If you are happy putting in the extra hours to scratch-build then fine. 

But it's hardly unusual for an out of  production kit to sell for three times what it originally cost new. Quite normal really. It only reflects the extent to which a lot of people would rather have the kit than scratch-build.

Looks like this is the way to go after having a look around to see if there is any AZ for sale. Having never done any SB before I should probably can the whole idea for now until I've had at least a bit of practice.

[alt-92]

AZ do every now and then re-release kits. I'm hoping for that while fondling the UTI one. 

 

Should you want to give conversion a try, see if you can get a hold of the three-kit 'joy' pack they have. 
That would give you three Mk.IX's and a Mk.XVI low-back fuselage to play with.

[Work In Progress]

1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

Also three Dutch ones (hence the interest). Marked as H-97, H-98 and H-99.

 

I always seem to overlook those. Thanks - I've added them into the other post

In addition there was a further private-venture Supermarine demonstrator, G-ALJM, built out of a IX, which was eventually sold to Egypt.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Work In Progress]

1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

AZ do every now and then re-release kits. I'm hoping for that while fondling the UTI one. 

Should you want to give conversion a try, see if you can get a hold of the three-kit 'joy' pack they have. 

I have some AZ single-seater IX, it's quite a nice kit. I should dig one out and see whether the Brigade fuselage is better suited to be used with the AZ, Airfix or Eduard single-seater kits as I have a few of each kicking around. I'm not really interested in trying with the Italeri one

[modelldoc]

Here is the AZ kit:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/az-model-azs7208-supermarine-spitfire-mkix-uti--225826

 

BTW, the DOSAAF version in light blue is a WHAT-IF!!!

 

modelldoc

[alt-92]

The one that is needed is a AZ74xx series.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/az-model-az7479-supermarine-spitfire-tr9--353487

[Paul Thompson]

On 26/07/2020 at 12:45, Work In Progress said:

The Brigade conversion (I have one of those too) was produced on the assumption that you will use an Italeri IX as the base kit, probably because it came out in 2005 before the much superior new-tool Airfix kit became the cheap 1/72 Spit IX to have in 2009. At least the Italieri kit is not expensive, and less problematic if you're ditching the fuselage.

 

They must have done more than one version then. Mine is intended for use with the Matchbox Mk IX and has decals for the Dutch BS147.

 

Paul.

[Work In Progress]

1 minute ago, Paul Thompson said:

 

They must have done more than one version then. Mine is intended for use with the Matchbox Mk IX and has decals for the Dutch BS147.

 

Paul.

Interesting... maybe he just updated the recommendation... The Matchbox kit doesn;t even have a gull wing root so I am not sure how that was supposed to pan out. I may have a Matchbox IX somewhere, I remember stealing the prop out of it to use on something else. If I can find it I will offer it up to the Brigade fuselage at some stage.