Spec7 Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Interesting to see this with original period document referenced researched by Hendon refers throughout as underside duck egg blue with Sky a secondary description in brackets. https://www.seawings.co.uk/images/colour charts/British Aviation Colours of WWII.pdf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 As threads about colours are the most shut down here due to people going off on one, I would ask that this thread does not degenerate. Thx 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 10 minutes ago, Julien said: As threads about colours are the most shut down here due to people going off on one, I would ask that this thread does not degenerate. Thx Weird isn’t it Julien? Given our colour perception differs from person to person, the effects of aging paint, light conditions, reproduction printing, monitor settings, chemicals used in manufacture, conditions present in manufacture and probably a stack of other variables I missed out I wonder why we all don’t settle for an acceptance of what’s close enough and instead get hot under the collar Half the time we can’t be sure what the paint scheme was far less the shades I remember sitting as a kid with the family debating the eau de nil paint going on the wall. Was it greeny or bluey? Argument never resolved and the family was standing looking at it!! Hopefully have not strayed too off topic. Good find Spec7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 (edited) Perhaps this time we'll have the argument about flagrant breaches of copyright instead. That one being Crown Copyright 1976, so protected until 2026. Edited July 26, 2020 by Work In Progress 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Sky is not a secondary description in those documents, it is a reference to the official name of a specific colour. It is duck egg blue that is a generic description and as such does not define a paint according to a specific standard. Paint companies had to follow whatever MAP had specified as Sky, regardless of the descriptions used in other documents. Very important with Sky as the same is described in different ways in different documents. P.S. the rear fuselage band and spinner on the Spit on that book cover are in Sky.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJP Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 3 hours ago, JohnT said: . . . I wonder why we all don’t settle for an acceptance of what’s close enough and instead get hot under the collar . . . Academic politics are so vicious because the stakes are so low. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 4 hours ago, Julien said: As threads about colours are the most shut down here due to people going off on one, I would ask that this thread does not degenerate. Thx Yeah Rules 1) Teddies at ten paces only 2) or can be thrown out of the pram cheers jerry 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 4 hours ago, Work In Progress said: Perhaps this time we'll have the argument about flagrant breaches of copyright instead. That one being Crown Copyright 1976, so protected until 2026. Talking of copyright - did anyone ever ask the ducks? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 27 minutes ago, Werdna said: did anyone ever ask the ducks? They said it was all a load of quack. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDINO Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 I saw a site go to H3ck because of arguments about color, who had the most watched post, who had the smallest _____ etc. As I have said many times before: We are kids playing with toys. Have fun! Enjoy! Encourage others! Have a pint or three. Don't like something? Who Cares? Just enjoy and remember that we all do the very best we can & that perfect is the enemy of good. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 8 hours ago, Spec7 said: as underside duck egg blue with Sky a secondary description in brackets. duck egg blue (Sky Type "S" ) is how this is written in the orders. This implies that duck egg blue is the colloquial term, as proper names for paint colours are Capitalised Sky is the official name, Type "S" refers to it being Smooth, the S type paints being new type of paint note this from here the colour chart supplied with the book. has Sky Grey, Sky, Sky Blue. no duck egg blue Sky was the same colour as camotint, developed for PRU use. It was adopted for general use after it's success in the PRU unit. this image maybe of interest, as it has both Sky (spinner and underwing) and Sky Blue undercowling Seafire by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr I googled "Duck egg colour" "Duck egg is described in the dictionary as a pale blue-ish green" Given 1 in 12 males have some defect in their colour vision, and the colour space, and a colloquial colour name, this from a discussion about Du Pont 71-31, Sky Type "S" Grey On 20/08/2011 at 08:31, Nick Millman said: 71-021 occupies a subtle colour space of pale blue-green. Whilst the Munsell value for it is a green-yellow (like Sky) the closest FS value of 25622 is blue predominant. People perceive the colour differently, some seeing it as more blueish, others as more greenish and some only see a light grey. That is a receptive and subjective aspect that does not relate to the actual measured colour values. Before discussing whether this pale blue-green is actually blue or green here is an online test you can take to assess your own colour acuity:- FM100 Hue Test the X-rite test is here https://www.xrite.com/hue-test 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cngaero Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Werdna said: Talking of copyright - did anyone ever ask the ducks? They did try to ask all of the ducks, but they found that it was too canard. 1 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 without putting all our eggs in one basket.. 49 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: Sky Type S could be colloquially called duck egg blue, but that doesn't mean all duck eggs (green or blueish) are Sky Type S. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Incidentally @Troy Smith : it might be a bit confusing the matter when you state that official colours are capitalised, and the first memo shown has duck egg capitalised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: A bunch of stuff with images I've removed to save space and the following referenced threads I can't from a phone easily. Excellent post Troy. Apart from genuine initial confusion in field, there has never really been any doubt about the intended colour and specification of Sky - it's even found its way into British Standard 381C as -210 Sky in one of the several refreshes of that standard over the years. It's not even subject to competing or conflicting portrayals of the colour such as is the case with some Luftwaffe paints. Primary source evidence sits right at the pinnacle of the pecking order. There's little more incriminating than an official dated, signed and letterheaded document spelling it out in black and white! 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachtwulf Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: the X-rite test is here https://www.xrite.com/hue-test Allright, test taken. Scored a "0" which is perfect. This surprises me since I am partially colorblind in one eye due to a childhood injury. It was a fun test, but I will still avoid color arguments. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 We could always argue the matter until we're blue in the face... Ok, ok, I'll stop now. 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: duck egg blue (Sky Type "S" ) is how this is written in the orders. This implies that duck egg blue is the colloquial term, as proper names for paint colours are Capitalised Given 1 in 12 males have some defect in their colour vision, and the colour space, and a colloquial colour name, this from a discussion about Du Pont 71-31, Sky Type "S" Grey the X-rite test is here https://www.xrite.com/hue-test Great, now I’m craving for a bag of Cadbury’s mini eggs.... 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nachtwulf Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 1 minute ago, wombat said: Great, now I’m craving for a bag of Cadbury’s mini eggs.... I wish you hadn't said that......... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Given the usual British weather, shouldn’t Sky be distinctly grey? 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec7 Posted July 26, 2020 Author Share Posted July 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Troy Smith said: duck egg blue (Sky Type "S" ) is how this is written in the orders. This implies that duck egg blue is the colloquial term, as proper names for paint colours are Capitalised Odd that if the proper names for paint are capitalised your first doc shows D, E, B G in capitals and Sky type S in lower case... 🙂 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 42 minutes ago, Spec7 said: Odd that if the proper names for paint are capitalised your first doc shows D, E, B G in capitals and Sky type S in lower case... 🙂 Probably a red herring to point out capitalisation, but as with most armed forces, if you actually want to obtain a can of paint you need to requisition it using its correct name and stores number in order to get the right colour in the right formulation in the right size of can. Everything worked by stores or catalogue numbers in the normal logistical supply chain, precisely because one often ended up with amusing stories for the grandchildren if requesting something without knowing the proper catalogue number - e.g. Lt Cdr Peter Scott requesting 2000 maps of Iceland when the Royal Navy set up base there and being sent just shy of 2000 maps of Ireland, and the remainder being of Madagascar - or, indeed, the short term chaos caused by whomever first wrote the signal instructing the use of Sky Type S but calling it Duck Egg Blue. A significant portion of my week during RAF Initial Officer Training was spent on learning how to write in an unambiguous and very explicit fashion for this reason. Anyway, there certainly was confusion reigning for a portion of 1940 in the RAF as well as the RN and probably the British Army as well, but hard lessons were learned in that if it's at all possible for someone to misinterpret then you can be certain someone will, and therefore to communicate instructions clearly and unmistakably. I don't have copies myself but I do know that copies of RAF stores numbers for paints do exist which denote the chemical type, the can size and of course the colour - and the official name was Sky from the outset, Sky Type S for the smooth finish stuff specifically. When the Ministry of Aircraft Production started ordering aeroplanes from American companies, the specifications sent were likewise called Sky. ANA610 is described as Sky, and even prior to the ANA promulgation even DuPont's equivalent was catalogued as 71-021 Sky Type S Gray with particular mention of the gray part which was anomalous and indeed 71-021 was probably a better fit to the colloquial "Duck Egg Blue" description than the stuff they were asked to match (Sky) was. One may muse at what precisely it was DuPont actually received as a sample to match since the rest of them were pretty good matches for the MAP specs. The timescale would fit fairly well for the calamity our Duck Egg Blue friends unwittingly caused. Having spent a bit of time reading 80 year old letters in Kew, this sort of thing was by no means unique, but something all parties wished to avoid nonetheless. One will find letters enquiring about rumoured stuff, replies fleshing out the official status, further letters requesting samples to match to and so on. The organised memos to operational units were generally better executed than this one insomuch as they were drafted, checked for clarity, approved then issued. One does tend to find a paper trail of the odd correction or clarification, which simultaneously suggests some notable variances out in the field but also that people were indeed checking and that life in the forces wasn't a massive free for all. If we have a clear understanding of the official standards and the typical weathering characteristics of each paint (some susceptible to chalking whilst others more to photo reaction of one or more pigments), along with the camouflage policy and its chronological evolution we can make informed decisions about deviations for artistic license, which I do indeed do on my own models. I just like a known good starting point and a conscious decision about what direction I'm adjusting it in. 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Roberts Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 8 hours ago, Werdna said: Talking of copyright - did anyone ever ask the ducks? Yep - they said "Just stick it on my bill." Ok 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimpyboy Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: A significant portion of my week during RAF Initial Officer Training was spent on learning how to write in an unambiguous and very explicit fashion for this reason. Amen. It is interesting to see; however, how often an organisation’s official correspondence (not always written by someone directly in the know, as it were) can often - and unintentionally - contain information at odds with that outlined in established standards/nomenclatures/doctrine/orders, etc. Edited July 27, 2020 by Blimpyboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie22 Posted July 27, 2020 Share Posted July 27, 2020 8 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: With most armed forces, if you actually want to obtain a can of paint you need to requisition it using its correct name and stores number in order to get the right colour in the right formulation in the right size of can. I don't have copies myself but I do know that copies of RAF stores numbers for paints do exist which denote the chemical type, the can size and of course the colour - and the official name was Sky from the outset, Sky Type S for the smooth finish stuff specifically. Jamie, So true, so true. Having spent time in the Service myself and, later in the Australian Defence Department, you do need to understand the stores system and nomenclature if you want to get the correct item. Names and descriptions are often given incorrectly in other documents, basically due to human error or just plain laziness in finding out the correct description. There were four types of Sky paint available during the war years, 1. A nitro-cellulose dope. (for fabric). 2. The original matt cellulose paint. 3. A matt pigmented synthetic resin. (The 'smooth' paints). 4. A matt pigmented lanolin solution. (For use on sections of seaplane that were underwater when at rest). Post war, the DTDs 751, 752, & 753, specifying improved dopes of low, medium, and high taughtness were introduced. Attached below is a brief section of an EXCEL document I have been compiling over the years as I gather information about the RAF, (and RAAF), finish specifications, their service store numbers and description, and manufacturers' codes and descriptions. I have added Sky Blue and Sky Grey to the Sky section, just for the hell of it. A point often not considered by modellers is the type of paint, (or dope), i.e. its chemical composition. This had an effect on the surface finish and also, to some extent, on the hue, not to mention variation within the specified standards by the manufacturers. Each finish had, amongst others, specified standards for hue and surface finish, but there was some lattitude allowed to manufactures. One also suspects that during wartime, extra lattitude was given, just to get the product. As to variations in finish when applied to aircraft in service, that's a whole new can of worms. We modellers have become too consumed in trying to get the 'exact', 'correct' shade of paint on our models, when in fact there is no such thing, as any inspection of a service aircraft, (not a restoration), will show. 7 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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