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Late War Luftwaffe Colors -- Does this look right?


opus999

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Looks a bit more 'subtle' now, if that's the look you were going for.  I'd be happy with that.  As a matter of interest, what scheme/whose aircraft are you intending to reproduce?

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The RLM was the authority on the camouflage employed by the various aircraft manufacturers and used a numeric system to identify the color (and other properties), it was the manufacturers that typically employed descriptive terms for color.  For RLM 81, Messerschmitt employed the term Brunviolett while Dornier used Dunkelgrün.  As these new paints were being introduced the RLM dispensed with color samples and requiring manufactures to meet color standards.  RLM 81 showed considerable variation, ranging from a dark chocolate brown to a dark green.  82 ranged from a bright medium green to a darker green with a tinge of blue.

 

Remember the various aircraft manufacturers sourced paint from different paint manufacturers, so it is quite likely the 81 Messerschmitt received was different than that supplied to Dornier.  

 

To further complicate matters the RLM permitted residual stocks of RLM 70 and 71 to be paired with the new colors as an economy measure. The net result is the modeller has a lot of leeway in painting models that reasonably depicts the use of  the late war Luftwaffe greens.

 

Finally there are surviving artifacts and some color photography that can shed some information on the subject, even if not definitive. 

 

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Edited by Vonbraun
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11 hours ago, Werdna said:

Hi Graham - fair point about the spray guns, but is it not the case that painting/repainting (inc mottling) was also applied elsewhere, like maintenance depots or at unit level as needed?

True, the Germans were much more inclined to that sort of thing than other nations, and better equipped for it.   There are well-known examples such as the initial adding of mottle to the fuselage sides of Bf109Es after the Battle of France, or the camouflage experiments of JG54.  But the keywords are also and sometimes.  With late war Bf.109s, it is possible to tell the factory it was made in by the pattern  of the mottle on the fuselage.  This would not be possible with widespread repainting.

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12 hours ago, Vonbraun said:

The RLM was the authority on the camouflage employed by the various aircraft manufacturers and used a numeric system to identify the color (and other properties), it was the manufacturers that typically employed descriptive terms for color.  For RLM 81, Messerschmitt employed the term Brunviolett while Dornier used Dunkelgrün.  As these new paints were being introduced the RLM dispensed with color samples and requiring manufactures to meet color standards.  RLM 81 showed considerable variation, ranging from a dark chocolate brown to a dark green.  82 ranged from a bright medium green to a darker green with a tinge of blue.

 

Remember the various aircraft manufacturers sourced paint from different paint manufacturers, so it is quite likely the 81 Messerschmitt received was different than that supplied to Dornier.  

 

To further complicate matters the RLM permitted residual stocks of RLM 70 and 71 to be paired with the new colors as an economy measure. The net result is the modeller has a lot of leeway in painting models that reasonably depicts the use of  the late war Luftwaffe greens.

 

Finally there are surviving artifacts and some color photography that can shed some information on the subject, even if not definitive. 

 

 

 

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The above photo compares favorably with the Smithsonian restoration!  Very nice paint matching!

 

real4

 

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I enjoy reading these discussions, hoping to learn what others have figured out looks best. Being partially green-brown colorblind, I don’t dare try mixing colors by my eye. At least is appears with late war Luftwaffe camouflage there is more leeway in getting the color(s) correct because of possible paint stock variations.

 

Not to highjack this thread, but I often wonder how other colorblind modelers handle the paint color and hue choices. :shrug:

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Yesterday was my anniversary, and it was a big one, so no modeling for me! :) Three hours without the boys was sure nice.

 

But, to answer this question:

 

On 7/25/2020 at 3:06 PM, Werdna said:

As a matter of interest, what scheme/whose aircraft are you intending to reproduce?

It's one of the subjects on the AeroMaster Decals "Reich defense III" sheet.  Unfortunately, they list it as: "W. Nr. and Unit unknown. 1945".  It's the bottom one in this photo.  The green and brown are much darker here than in real life, but I have the Black and White below it so you can see the demarcation of the colors.

 

t4czTmk.jpg

 

7bTcp7s.jpg?1

 

Today I worked on coming up with mixes that match what I had achieved with dusting  the brown on the existing paint.  I was pleased to find I could match it fairly quickly with some basic ratios.  So for anyone who may stumble upon this and are using Hataka paints: To my eye, the RLM 81 looks best with 1 part of Hataka RLM 81 mixed with 1 part of Hataka RLM 79b (Medium Brown).  For the green, I found 2 parts of Hataka RLM 82 mixed with 1 part of Hataka RLM 79b.  Your mileage may vary, void where prohibited by law, etc. etc.  ...but at least it will be a good starting point for you.

 

Here's how it looks after mottling with the above mixes:

 

sFL35RW.jpg

 

HuEHGPh.jpg

 

DaYF9CW.jpg

 

h4XX8kh.jpg

 

The brown has more of a hint of violet in it in real life than in the pictures, but I think the green was captured pretty well here.   The mottles are slightly lighter because they are over blue rather than my black base. I had to patch part of the RLM 81 on the wing because of a little overspray and I cannot tell the difference so that 1:1 mix is pretty close.

Edited by opus999
Had the wrong paint color in the post
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Your final rendition of the colors looks convincing enough to me!

 

My pastor likes to say, "Every Lutheran sermon should end with the phrase, '...but I could be wrong about that!'" IMHO, much the same should follow any post on late Luftwaffe colors, LOL

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2 hours ago, JustDave said:

I enjoy reading these discussions, hoping to learn what others have figured out looks best. Being partially green-brown colorblind, I don’t dare try mixing colors by my eye. At least is appears with late war Luftwaffe camouflage there is more leeway in getting the color(s) correct because of possible paint stock variations.

 

Not to highjack this thread, but I often wonder how other colorblind modelers handle the paint color and hue choices. :shrug:

Welcome aboard!  You ask a very good question that I am afraid I can't answer.  I would be curious to see how others with colorblindness would answer.  I'm not colorblind myself, however it is a big issue in my work because scientific communication (charts, maps, etc.) obviously needs to be clearly understood. :D  

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A couple of things to add to this debate:

 

The RLM normally allocated paint numbers and descriptions with samples to manufacturers, but this stopped after RLM 80.  Only descriptions (no RLM samples) exist for the colours in the 80+ range, and interpretation of these varied greatly from one manufacturer to another (not to mention modellers!!). No contemporaneous  documentation confirming numbers and colour shades/hues seems to exist.

 

I'm lucky to have copies of Hitchcock/Merrick/Crandall/JaPo/Brown & Wadman/Ullmann and studying these reinforces the sincere efforts of the authors to strive for authenticity but also the variations between their interpretations. 

 

I've seen too many modelling threads turn sour and unproductive over this subject to take any concrete position over late war colours. 

 

 

What we can say is that evidence from crashed airframes shows dark green, light green and the brown-violet shade you're using here employed as uppersurface camouflage. (It also shows black-grey and very light grey as well, but that's not well explained in mainstream publications) Lower surfaces were RLM 76, but this again has significant variations so I'll leave that issue for now.

 

On a much more positive note, your FW190 Black 6 is pictured in the JaPo volume 'Luftwaffe over Czech Territory 1945'

 

IMG_3946

 

IMG_3948

 

Source: Rajlich J., Kokoska S. & Janda A. (2001) 'Luftwaffe over Czech Territory 1945' Japo Prague  pp.61-62

Uploaded for the purpose of discussion/research

 

 

As you can see from the caption this is a FW190F-8 attached to St./SG10 - a ground attack unit. So you'll need the armoured oil cooler and wing bomb racks with an ETC fuselage rack. Looks as if the wheel well doors might have been removed as well. White 70 on both sides of the cowling. Tail is not visible, but I feel an outline hakenkreuz as proposed by Aeromaster is plausible - other St./SG10 Fws have them. 

I'll leave any interpretation of the colours up to you. :wink:.

 

If any further proof is needed of the difficulties in determining late war Luftwaffe colours, then take a minute to examine this photo of the aircraft graveyard taken at Ceske Budejovice post-war. (also sourced from the same JaPo volume as above )

 

IMG_3949

 

These Focke-Wulfs are also from St./SG10, so your unit. Your Black 6 may be in the frame. But look at the variations in camouflage! (also look at Black 4 above my first pic of Black 6 - its also from the same unit)

 

Paint it as you think is right :like:. I think you've done a good job with your toning down of the colours - you've blended the finish well. 

 

SD

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@SafetyDad Thanks for this info, it is terrific! Unfortunately, the decal set listed this as an A-8, not an F-8 (which is why I bought it, having an A-8 kit to work with).  I don't know much about Fw's but I found some resin ETC50 racks available (the resource at  https://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/12/stuff_eng_fw190_02.htm was very helpful).  Was the same rack used for the bomb and the drop tank?  If so I have that.  The outboard guns would need to be clipped off and the underwing blisters sanded down and repainted. 

 

I have to wonder if converting to and F-8 is worth it now that I've discovered that the mottling pattern that Aeromaster decals provided appears to be completely fictitious!  What a disappointment.  The stickler in me wants to repaint it to be correct and make the F-8 modifications, and yet now that I've put so much work into the paint job, I don't want to get rid of it, and so completing the build as an (incorrect) A-8 has its appeal.  Although it would probably aggravate my OCD for the rest of my life. :)

 

Now that I know it's an F-8, it's much easier to find information about this particular a/c, especially since Revell did a 1/48 version of it a couple of years ago.

 

Ugh... what to do, what to do.... :(

Edited by opus999
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Oh, yeah... can anyone enlighten me a bit about the "armored oil cooler"? I'm looking at pictures of F-8s and A-8s and I can't see a difference, but I don't know exactly what I'm looking for.

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Ahhh @opus999my young Padawan. Welcome to the bewildering world of the late-war Luftwaffe. :wink:

 

First off - you've done a great job so far.

Sadly Aeromaster have some form in terms of 'imprecise accuracy' of their instructions. As @Troy Smith would say - never trust a profile without pics...

Other modelling websites give them a hard time for their errors (perhaps with some justification), but I've never forgotten what an impact their decals made in terms of modelling choice when they first appeared.

 

The oil cooler ring is at the front of the engine cowl. On ground attack versions (and the A-9) this was armoured, and therefore bigger. Your friends at IPMS Stockholm can explain better than I perhaps here: https://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/11/stuff_eng_fw190_01.htm

I notice they don't mention the oil cooler armour for the F-8 - I need to check that detail. They do mention it for the A-9. 

 

Why not build two Fw 190s? Your current one plus Black 6 as an F-8. Your current build is progressing well - I think you should finish this without becoming disheartened. Your mottling is great! Modelling (as they say) is meant to be fun. Fw's have loads of options for markings and you could finish this one as either a real or a 'representative' airframe. 

 

Actually, looking at the those pictures today, and knowing that this Fw 190F-8 is from St./SG10, I did wonder if this Fw is actually Blue 6? Stab aircraft used Blue letters and numbers. Check the (known) black of the Balkenkreuz vs the tone of the number and dash? Aeromaster and JaPo both say black, but hey ho. As I said, welcome to the bewildering world...

 

Yep, blown canopy :like:

 

Following and in your corner 

 

SD

 

 

 

 

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On 24/07/2020 at 19:26, klr said:

As I recall, there were some unusual mid-war fighter schemes that used RLM 02/RLM 62, and/or RLM 61, along with some other "standard" fighter colours.

 

On 24/07/2020 at 19:26, klr said:

As I recall, there were some unusual mid-war fighter schemes that used RLM 02/RLM 62, and/or RLM 61, along with some other "standard" fighter colours.

The light green on the A-5 would not have been RLM 82 as this was to early, it was probably a mixed green, RLM 25 or even captured Russian paint.
Wulfman

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37 minutes ago, Wulfman said:

 

The light green on the A-5 would not have been RLM 82 as this was to early, it was probably a mixed green, RLM 25 or even captured Russian paint.
Wulfman

Not so fast there @Wulfman :wink:

 

The A-5 shown above was a JG54 machine before it was restored. They were well-known as innovators and experimenters in camouflage, and seemed to have acted almost as a test unit for new schemes on the Eastern Front. There is some suggestion (I think from Merrick but I would have to check) that JG54 trialled the late war colours in 1943 using pre-war RLM colours as a base. There is ample photographic evidence for their non-standard schemes. As here with two more Fw 190A-5s

 

Fw 190A-5s JG54 colour

 

Doesn't that look like Braunviolett 81 and Green 82? But it's 1943. :facepalm:

 

It's possible that @klr's comments above may well have some basis in fact.

 

SD

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2 minutes ago, torqueofthedevil said:

This is a stunning photo which I haven't seen before - which (unit), where, when please? I'm guessing the answer to the last question is 'May 1945' but that's not guaranteed! 

I think it's a still from some film,  IIRC this is (or has been captioned) as a Focke Wulf factory in Bremen.  They are not derelict, as much as incomplete.

There are B/W photos as well. 

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9 minutes ago, torqueofthedevil said:

This is a stunning photo which I haven't seen before - which (unit), where, when please? I'm guessing the answer to the last question is 'May 1945' but that's not guaranteed! 

Fw factory at Oschersleben 1945.

 

Another picture of the same scene appears in The Monogram Painting Guide. More are available online if you Google 'Fw Oschersleben'

 

SD

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4 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Not so fast there @Wulfman :wink:

 

The A-5 shown above was a JG54 machine before it was restored. They were well-known as innovators and experimenters in camouflage, and seemed to have acted almost as a test unit for new schemes on the Eastern Front. There is some suggestion (I think from Merrick but I would have to check) that JG54 trialled the late war colours in 1943 using pre-war RLM colours as a base. There is ample photographic evidence for their non-standard schemes. As here with two more Fw 190A-5s

 

Fw 190A-5s JG54 colour

 

Doesn't that look like Braunviolett 81 and Green 82? But it's 1943. :facepalm:

 

It's possible that @klr's comments above may well have some basis in fact.

 

SD

I'll throw something else into the mix, also related to JG 54. This is Walter Nowotny's Fw 190 A-5, Orel, Autumn 1943:

 

2_25_b1.jpg

 

According to Eduard, this scheme is RLM 70/RLM 71 over RLM 76, with a mottle of RLM 75 over RLM 76 on the tail. The basic RLM 70/RLM 71 scheme was last used on fighters in 1940, as far as I am aware. The paint guide notes that: "... The aircraft wore an unusual upper wing camouflage, seen on some of the aircraft produced by the AGO works plant in Oschersleben".

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4 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Not so fast there @Wulfman :wink:

 

The A-5 shown above was a JG54 machine before it was restored. They were well-known as innovators and experimenters in camouflage, and seemed to have acted almost as a test unit for new schemes on the Eastern Front. There is some suggestion (I think from Merrick but I would have to check) that JG54 trialled the late war colours in 1943 using pre-war RLM colours as a base. There is ample photographic evidence for their non-standard schemes. As here with two more Fw 190A-5s

 

Fw 190A-5s JG54 colour

 

Doesn't that look like Braunviolett 81 and Green 82? But it's 1943. :facepalm:

 

It's possible that @klr's comments above may well have some basis in fact.

 

SD

Hi SafetyDad,

A 1943 colour photograph? I’m not convinced. Maybe RLM61/RLM62? I guess we will never know for certain ! 

Wulfman

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Hi, gents,

Consider that TMK "new" doctrine considers the RLM81 Braunviolett to be actually a kind of Olive Drab; that RLM82 Hellgrun a medium olive green, rather lousy (but not as that in the picture); and that RLM"83" Dunkelgrun not to exist at all (and "83" being assigned to a Dark Blue colour of which no one has found any widespread use evidence). A possible variation of 81 leaning to a Brown is apparently also accepted. Those German beaurocrats actually naming the colours seem to have been color-blind, at times.

 

Fernando, enclosed in a box in Argentina

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Wow, I got off work and found this thread had ballooned! :D It's great though, because I am learning quite a bit.

 

6 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Why not build two Fw 190s? Your current one plus Black 6 as an F-8.

Not quite sure I follow... You mean, find an A-8 with a similar scheme to what I had painted?  and then save black 6 for a true F-8 model?  At lunchtime I had looked for an A-8 with similar paint scheme, and had no joy.  Not many 81/82 FW-190A's that I could find.  I thought I could use my 2nd choice from the aeromaster sheet, which said it was an A-8 and has a similar mottling pattern (but would need a little painting to match the profile), but when I looked up the W. Nr they gave, I found very little info, except that it was an F-8 as well! 

 

After work, I looked at the Eduard A-5 kit I have, and the extra parts in that kit include the headrest support I would need for an F-8, as well as the centerline bomb rack and bomb. The Airfix kit has the blown canopy as a spare.  I found some resin ETC50 bomb racks. I looked at IPMS Stockholm again and they didn't mention the armored oil cooler ring for the F-8, and a comparison of Eduard instructions for the A-8 and F-8 show they use the same part for the oil cooler ring.

 

So, converting this model into an F-8 is relatively straightforward, which would make only the paint scheme bogus. 😕 Not that I'm opposed to making an A-8 and an F-8... :) 

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4 hours ago, opus999 said:

Wow, I got off work and found this thread had ballooned! :D It's great though, because I am learning quite a bit.

 

Not quite sure I follow... You mean, find an A-8 with a similar scheme to what I had painted?  and then save black 6 for a true F-8 model?  At lunchtime I had looked for an A-8 with similar paint scheme, and had no joy.  Not many 81/82 FW-190A's that I could find.  I thought I could use my 2nd choice from the aeromaster sheet, which said it was an A-8 and has a similar mottling pattern (but would need a little painting to match the profile), but when I looked up the W. Nr they gave, I found very little info, except that it was an F-8 as well! 

 

After work, I looked at the Eduard A-5 kit I have, and the extra parts in that kit include the headrest support I would need for an F-8, as well as the centerline bomb rack and bomb. The Airfix kit has the blown canopy as a spare.  I found some resin ETC50 bomb racks. I looked at IPMS Stockholm again and they didn't mention the armored oil cooler ring for the F-8, and a comparison of Eduard instructions for the A-8 and F-8 show they use the same part for the oil cooler ring.

 

So, converting this model into an F-8 is relatively straightforward, which would make only the paint scheme bogus. 😕 Not that I'm opposed to making an A-8 and an F-8... :) 

Yes, I meant to finish your current build as an A-8.

The reason I said to use a representative scheme in my post was that, like you, I realised the green/brown scheme was unusual of a Fw190A-8. Hitchcock comments that the Fw works tended to use out-of-date markings and they seem to have clung to older camo colours, such as the greys, almost to wars end.

 

Of course you could do a 'what if' with JG54 markings?

 

SD

 

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