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Late War Luftwaffe Colors -- Does this look right?


opus999

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I'm new to late war Luftwaffe colors. I'm working on a 1/72 FW-190A-8 with a late war scheme (RLM81/82/76).  I am using my Hataka (Lacquer) Late war Luftwaffe set and this is the result of the RLM 81 and 82:

 

ZZKpoLa.jpg

 

1XGBiFK.jpg

 

Of course shooting it was maddening, because I couldn't quite get the colors right, but this is fairly close.  In reality the green and the violet are a little more vivid.  As near as I can tell, the RLM 82 green is about right, but the RLM 81 is really a puzzle to me.  I seem to remember seeing paintings of green and violet German A/C (Me-262s), but most often the RLM 81 is more of a brown than a violet.  It just seems awfully purple to me, but I'm new to this so i could be wrong. 

 

Eduard's instructions for late war FW-190A's look about the same for the Violet, but a little darker for the RLM 82, but in general it seems like my paint would be authentic. The reviewer on "the modelling news" seemed to think that the Hataka Acrylic version of RLM 81 was a little vivid, but felt it was in the realm of possibility. 

 

Any thoughts?

Edited by opus999
make it clearer
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Afraid I don’t have an answer but am in the same boat as you building an end of the war 109 in the same colours and using Mr Color

paints. Will watch with interest. 

 

James

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If the question is 'does it look right' - then answers are going to be entirely subjective, based on an individual's perception, or expectation of what later war colours 'should' look like.  There was a thread on here recently which was essentially a dispute on a similar issue - and it got a bit fraught towards the end.

 

To my untrained eye, the brown looks too violet and almost metallic in tone, while the green looks too bright.  However, in reality, the colours could be completely accurate and my opinion could be wrong.  Unfortunately, there is unlikely to be a definitive answer.. :) 

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The colors compare favorably with the Smithsonian restored DO-335 (I realize it's a restoration, but they put a lot of effort into paint accuracy)

 

real4

 

... perhaps a touch of post decal weathering to tone it down slightly?  A light dusting with a light grey pastel chalk powder over the upper surfaces (including the decals) will soften and blend the colors and markings together, finish with a final flat coat.

 

Here was my attempt at those colors with Tamiya acrylics (XF51 and XF5)...

 

finshed4

 

Edited by Tail-Dragon
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Talking of 'paint accuracy' - here's an example of how colour can vary between manufacturers.  Here's a comparison between Vallejo RLM 82 and Mig RLM 82...

 

spacer.png

 

Vallejo on the left (darker) and Mig on the right.  If there's this much discrepancy between manufacturers over what ought to be the same colour, then what chance have the rest of us got? ;) 

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On 24/07/2020 at 05:50, opus999 said:

I'm new to late war Luftwaffe colors. I'm working on a 1/72 FW-190A-8 with a late war scheme (RLM81/82/76).  I am using my Hataka (Lacquer) Late war Luftwaffe set and this is the result of the RLM 81 and 82:

---

Any thoughts?

The bright green looks too bright to me.

 

The first mention of this late war "bright" green I came across matched it to Humbrol "HR104 Standard Loco Green", so that stuck with me. Still a rather shocking green compared to 70/71.

 

Maybe some things get easier to judge when models are photographed against a "medium" bright neutral backgrund.

Edited by Jochen Barett
typo
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I realized that I should've put a little more in the original post, because over the last week I've been reading about post war RLM colors, all the research that has been done, and all the uncertainty involved.  In fact I intended to end my post with "I'm pretty sure this is a fool's errand..."  :) Plus confound the issue with differences in monitors, cameras, etc.  It's enough to drive someone mad!

 

I guess it just seemed awfully bright for a military aircraft.  

 

11 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I must admit both colours look quite loud to me.

I don't know how the pictures appear on your monitor, but at least on mine, I can say they are slightly subdued from the real thing!  So yes, they look loud.

 

5 hours ago, Wulfman said:

research is still going on !

So I've discovered this week! :D 

 

4 hours ago, franky boy said:

Afraid I don’t have an answer but am in the same boat as you building an end of the war 109 in the same colours and using Mr Color

paints. Will watch with interest.

For what it's worth, it seems a lot of modelers favor Mr. Color for Late War Luftwaffe.  My opinion after looking at a ton of pictures this week is I prefer the Mr. Color Late War shades over others I've seen.  But!  This is more based on personal preference than any semblance of knowledge, so your mileage may vary.

 

3 hours ago, Werdna said:

If the question is 'does it look right' - then answers are going to be entirely subjective, based on an individual's perception, or expectation of what later war colours 'should' look like.

I realize now the question should've been "Does it look too bright?", I think that was more accurate. Unfortunately this particular topic is a little too uncertain for me.  I hate having to make really subjective decisions. But I guess it would be hard to prove me wrong! :) 

 

3 hours ago, Werdna said:

To my untrained eye, the brown looks too violet and almost metallic in tone, while the green looks too bright.

My thoughts exactly.  Not so much because I know what it is supposed to look like, but mainly based on other builds I've seen.  Plus I have a hard time imagining such bright colors being used in combat.  It looks like something the Joker from the '60's TV show Batman would fly!

 

2 hours ago, Tail-Dragon said:

I realize it's a restoration, but they put a lot of effort into paint accuracy

This is a nice piece of information!  I've learned the hard way that some museums are not that accurate with their restorations!

 

2 hours ago, Tail-Dragon said:

... perhaps a touch of post decal weathering to tone it down slightly?  A light dusting with a light grey pastel chalk powder over the upper surfaces (including the decals) will soften and blend the colors and markings together, finish with a final flat coat.

Those were my original thoughts... I typically do some post-decal weathering and I have noticed that, plus the dull coat, tend to tone down colors.  However, I'm beginning to think that I might dust it with a light brown to make the green a little more olive and the violet a little more brown (they seem awfully neon in real life).  But this will make the mottling difficult. :(  Beautiful Pfeil by the way!  I have an old Revell two-seater pfeil  in the stash, but I'd really like to do the single seat one!

 

1 hour ago, Werdna said:

If there's this much discrepancy between manufacturers over what ought to be the same colour, then what chance have the rest of us got?

Yeah... 😕 I noticed that with the RLM 81 the colors ranged from "Almost downright purple" from Hataka (my problem), To something more like Tail Dragon's Do225 in the posts above (Tamiya and Mr. Color) to a brown with an almost greenish cast (I don't remember who...).

 

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I realized when I posted that this was going to be subjective, but I hoped that maybe there was some sort of discovery about RLM paints.that I had missed in my research. :D It could happen!

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For what it's worth, here are a couple pictures I took at the McMinnville Air Museum in McMinnville, Oregon of their Me-262.  I wasn't sure how meticulous they are with color matching, but the colors seem to match what I think they should be! :)  plus they look close to Tail Dragon's Do-225 above.

 

GV1Z6mq.jpg

 

Haoalc7.jpg

 

I took the following pictures at the Flying Heritage Collection in Everett Washington at various times.  I know these folks put a lot of effort into color matching when they restore these planes to flyable condition, so I trust their work. 

 

Here's their FW-190A-5:

 

4mmmFLS.jpg

 

4xVCxAL.jpg

 

The paint scheme on this A-5 is a bit unusual.  The light green I think is supposed to be RLM 82; it seems slightly more olive than what Hataka offers. 

 

These pictures are the FW-190D-13:

 

172XPAG.jpg

 

The picture is kind of dark, there are better ones on the FHC website (https://flyingheritage.org/Explore/The-Collection/Germany/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190-D-13-(Dora).aspx).  The RLM 82 again, looks a little more olive than mine and the RLM 81 is more brown-ish than my paint -- maybe a tad more brown than Tamiya/Mr. Color.  Hard to say.

 

Finally, their Me-163;

 

QPfLlKG.jpg

 

Akc8viL.jpg

 

Hard to say on this one, but the RLM 81 appears to be mostly brown with just a touch of violet.  The website pictures weren't much help.

 

So given all of this, I think I will try to tone down the colors with a dusting of a brown color to try to push the green to a little more olive and the violet to a little more brown. If that fails, then I can order the mr. color paints and re paint, but I hate to lose traction on this build.  Up until now, the Hataka paints have been marvelous!  I'm kind of disappointed that these didn't meet my expectations (as @Wulfman said, they could be right!). 

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Again, to my 'untrained' eye, the mottling on that 262 looks far too 'clean & precise' - almost like it's been applied by a professional artist, as opposed to a field mechanic with a stiff brush.. ;) 

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For me, the "safe" choice for the upper camo of RLM 81/2 has been Humbrol 155/Humbrol 105 (Heller Bf 109 K-4, Academy Me 163). The lighting and background probably make these colours look a bit lighter than they actually are.

 

SDMX3000_20050508_105058_S3700046_detail

 

SDMX3000_20050508_105322_S3700053_dr_050

 

But as people have already said, there is no "right" answer for this, just as there isn't for so many other colour questions. I also have the newer Humbrol RLM colours, and the Xtracolor RLM colours as well, and I bet they will each look quite different when I try them.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, opus999 said:

I took the following pictures at the Flying Heritage Collection in Everett Washington at various times.  I know these folks put a lot of effort into color matching when they restore these planes to flyable condition, so I trust their work. 

 

Here's their FW-190A-5:

 

4mmmFLS.jpg

 

4xVCxAL.jpg

 

The paint scheme on this A-5 is a bit unusual.  The light green I think is supposed to be RLM 82; it seems slightly more olive than what Hataka offers.

As I recall, there were some unusual mid-war fighter schemes that used RLM 02/RLM 62, and/or RLM 61, along with some other "standard" fighter colours.

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3 hours ago, Werdna said:

Talking of 'paint accuracy' - here's an example of how colour can vary between manufacturers.  Here's a comparison between Vallejo RLM 82 and Mig RLM 82...

 

spacer.png

 

Vallejo on the left (darker) and Mig on the right.  If there's this much discrepancy between manufacturers over what ought to be the same colour, then what chance have the rest of us got? ;) 

 

That means very little in truth, because different publishers of modern day Luftwaffe paint chips portray different colours derived from differing methodologies of research.

 

It would be quite incorrect to assume two paint manufacturers both tried to achieve the same colour and arrive at such drastically different results.

 

This is my greatest irritation with RLM paint match discussions - Who's paint chips are being referred to???

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On 7/24/2020 at 8:42 AM, Werdna said:

Talking of 'paint accuracy' - here's an example of how colour can vary between manufacturers.  Here's a comparison between Vallejo RLM 82 and Mig RLM 82...

 

spacer.png

 

Vallejo on the left (darker) and Mig on the right.  If there's this much discrepancy between manufacturers over what ought to be the same colour, then what chance have the rest of us got? ;) 

Vallejo's color could be the result of the 82/83 transposition some sources and model paint manufacturers fell victim to years ago...

Edited by Rolls-Royce
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19 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

It would be quite incorrect to assume two paint manufacturers both tried to achieve the same colour and arrive at such drastically different results.

I don't disagree at all, Jamie.  I offer no analysis, other than to say that if you walk into a shop and ask for 'RLM 82', you may get two completely different colours depending on what they happen to have on the shelf.

 

19 minutes ago, Rolls-Royce said:

Vallejo's color could be the result of the 82/83 juxtaposition some sources and model paint manufacturers fell victim to years ago...

 

Quite possibly.  Aside from the '82' issue above, their 81 and 83 shades are also very similar to the point where you could probably interchange them without anyone really noticing...

 

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5 hours ago, Werdna said:

Again, to my 'untrained' eye, the mottling on that 262 looks far too 'clean & precise' - almost like it's been applied by a professional artist, as opposed to a field mechanic with a stiff brush.. ;) 

I felt the same way about the paint job.  That's why I wondered about how careful the restoration was.  I'm certain that many of the aircraft at that museum were restored in other places, so I don't know their pedigree.  I think the colors, though, seem closer to "my interpretation". ;)  (By the way, their FW-190A's mottling was even worse!)

 

Flying Heritage Collection, on the other hand, show many of their references to authenticate their restoration process.  While it may still be open to interpretation, I trust their restorations over most others.

Edited by opus999
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5 hours ago, klr said:

For me, the "safe" choice for the upper camo of RLM 81/2 has been Humbrol 155/Humbrol 105

I've never tried Humbrol.  I wonder how easy it is to get in the 'States? I'll have to do an internet search...

 

By the way, those look very nice indeed!

Edited by opus999
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I just broke out my new jar of Gunze Aqeous rlm 81 and tbh to my all be it relatively untrained eye it doesn’t look close.  It’s more of an olive drab than a brown violet. Maybe a few drops of red brown or something similar might bring it back a bit?

 

I had a quick google afterwards and it seems to be the general opinion that it isn’t that close. 

 

James

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Bear in mind that for a long time there was confusion over two different shades of 81, one a dark green and the other brown.  So this may be a relic of that.  Maybe there still is?  The first Allied discovery of 82 was on an Fw.190D shot down in Bodenplatte, and the report describes it as a bright green.  Compared to the dull 71 and 72 it still is.

 

The mottles were applied by the factory, not in the field, and even in the field there were airbrushes not stiff brushes.    So a neat job is not necessarily a sign of a modern  imagination, although it often is!  Although the washable camouflage on night bombers was applied using brooms - presumable also winter white.

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7 hours ago, franky boy said:

general opinion that it isn’t that close. 

 

I may have mis-lead you then... I thought I'd read that modelers liked Gunze's 81 and 82, but I must've confused them with another manufacturer.  Sorry about that... I did a lot of reading on the topic in the last few days -- too much to keep things straight apparently.

Edited by opus999
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10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The mottles were applied by the factory, not in the field, and even in the field there were airbrushes not stiff brushes.

Hi Graham - fair point about the spray guns, but is it not the case that painting/repainting (inc mottling) was also applied elsewhere, like maintenance depots or at unit level as needed?

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Well, I think I may have salvaged the paint job.  I dusted a mixture of 3 parts thinner to 1 part RLM 79a onto the aircraft.  The violet needed more than the green to make it look right. Unfortunately trying to get a photo that really captures what I see is darn near impossible!  I put it out in the sun to take photos this time, however in the hot Tri-Cities sun (today is a cool 95 F) i just about cooked my model in the couple minutes it took to grab a couple quick shots!

 

So, I will start with the finished product:

 

sjZ0Njd.jpg

 

I think this captures the look of the brown violet well, but the green is a little more olive in the picture than in real life.

 

7sqAIYO.jpg

 

the glare in the above picture makes it hard to see the color differences in the empannage, but it looks more defined in indoor lighting.  Again, the picture captures the RLM 81 pretty well, but the 82 looks more olive in the picture.

 

I'm not satisfied with the following shots, but will include them anyway.  These were taken after I had painted the starboard side of the a/c.  I'm not satisfied because the photos still don't capture how vivid the original paint (Port side) looked!  It almost looks nice on my monitor.  And the "fixed" side (starboard) looks more washed out than in real life. 

 

sJoDO3x.jpg

 

r6Nqao6.jpg 

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