HK Models B-17G 1/48 “The Swoose” 463rd BG

[Rakovica]

A little contribution on the coiled springs topic, from the Warbird Tech series. 

 

[woody37]

On 8/13/2020 at 5:19 PM, elger said:

I didn't want one of these, but seeing your build I really kind of do want one of these

I know you'll do a great job of it mate, so I'll get some popcorn ready

On 8/14/2020 at 7:57 AM, Cees Broere said:

HKM did correct the area just in front of the windscreen, as you can see the flat section. On the 1/32 version it is a full circle. Now if they would scale down the Lanc too.........(hint).

Cees

Use your influence Cees, I'll snap it up. I bought their 1/32 one but sold it again, just too damn big. I keep knocking things over when building a 1/48 bomber as I swing it around on the modelling bench!

On 8/14/2020 at 2:29 PM, easixpedro said:

I'm not sure what that is. Definitely a coiled spring. Perhaps something to help with recoil? Obviously a field modification. But I've seen tons of those on 15th AF birds. Including ones that covered the center windows on the ball turret while on the ground to keep mud from blocking the window. A lot of the 15th AF BGs have fascinating web pages. My great uncle flew with the 461st and theirs is one of the best (www.461st.org) They have mission flimsies and debriefs/photos of nearly every raid flown, and photos of every plane both original and replacements. There are a TON of field mods on their birds. I was fascinated to find that the airplane he flew in the most was fitted with APY-2 Carpet Jammers (he was a radio man and one of their duties was to operate the jammers--fascinating to me as I was an EWO for 20+ years). That airplane was also modified with a little chute like this B-17.

 

Off on a tangent for sure, but I can't recommend Price's work enough!  He was one of the original radar boffins and very influential in that field. Thanks for sharing your work--it looks great!

-Peter

I'll have a gander over to that website thanks. 

On 8/14/2020 at 7:59 PM, Matt B said:

That’s actually part of the mount and from what I’ve seen in other photos, that was typical of mounts in the 3 panel windows as well as early Douglas staggered one panel windows.  On the 3 panel windows a canvas boot was attached on the inside to keep the elements out while on Douglas windows the boot was on the outside.   I imagine the spring helped control the up and down movement and returned the gun to a certain position when not in use much like the nose guns with their pulleys and springs.

 

Im currently trying to find good reference photos to show this....I did a lot of organizing of photos on my computer a few months back (I do photography on the side) but for the life of me I can’t remember where I put my B-17 reference pics.

Thanks for confirming

On 8/15/2020 at 6:29 AM, Rakovica said:

A little contribution on the coiled springs topic, from the Warbird Tech series. 

 

Perfect, you've helped me to answer another question I had with that photo. I wasn't sure whether the wind deflectors would of been added as I guess they aren't necessary with a sealed window and don't appear to of been fitted ot later G models. As this is an early one, I suspected they would of been a left over from the factory, particularly as the sealed windows appear to of been retrofitted going off the fresh paintwork around them. I took the risk and added plasticard deflectors. I cut into the fuselage to sink them in rather than having a raised edge. Etch ones are provided in the kit, but I found it easier to work with plastic ones using Tamiya extras thin to attach. Looking at this photo, although hard to see, it does look like they are there.

 

More progress this weekend. On many of the photo's of parked forts, the elevators are deflected so I cut them out top alter the angle. Technically, I think the trailing edge of the tail plane should be curved to match the profile of the elevator leading edge, but to keep things simple, I used 10 thou plasticard to seal off the gap left by cutting the parts way. It doesn't look too bad. One is done and primed and I've got the other to finish off..

 

 

The gaps were filled with bits of card strip and filler smeared over any gaps left. Looks a bit messy but this one is yet to be sanded.

 

As per @Rakovica advice, the port tailplane will be silver rather than green as it was replaced at some point so will add to the interest of the finished scheme. You can also see the wind deflectors. The one above the radio hatch isn't painted yet.

 

Another small detail was the lack of door hinges. Instead, the door had a big square tab in the middle, so this was cut off and the hinges cut from 10 though card and slots cut into the fuselage as per the photo posted earlier. 

 

And in bigger news, the wings have been assembled..

 

 

And a view of the underside. I put some detail in the fuselage around the front hatch, you can just about see some of it in the photo but I didn't take any photo's before stitching the fuselage up.

 

 

Rather enjoying the build and it's greatly increased by the knowledge and references being shared to help. I know very little about the 15th AF so this is a good opportunity to learn more about it

 

Thanks

Neil

[Rakovica]

Getting better and better every day Neil! 🙂

 

As about the wind deflectors, I'd say you've made a good decision after all. 😉

 

 

Also note some fresh flak holes all around.

 

I'll try to get the mentioned photo of "The Swoose" showing its replaced tailplane and other details before you start the paint work. Give me a few days.

[woody37]

40 minutes ago, Rakovica said:

Getting better and better every day Neil! 🙂

 

As about the wind deflectors, I'd say you've made a good decision after all. 😉

 

 

Also note some fresh flak holes all around.

 

I'll try to get the mentioned photo of "The Swoose" showing its replaced tailplane and other details before you start the paint work. Give me a few days.

That must be an earlier photo as the window dispenser isn't present. I may leave it off as they inconveniently stuck it where the decal will go! Great photo thanks. The glazed window frame is much deeper than the unglazed opening, so again, I presumed that the deflector would align with the original window, your photo confirms it. Those flack holes have come through from the other side. I wonder if this was the incident that led to the port tail plane being replaced?

 

Thanks

[tomprobert]

This is shaping up beautifully, Neil. 
 

You are spot on re the deflectors as the pictures show. On early G-models the glazed waist windows were a retrofit and they left the factories with the earlier F-style open windows. The glazed portions came as kits and were added post-production at modification depots. The same applies for the early Gs with the cheek windows too. However, as the production of G batches continued, these mods were added during production. I don’t have a definitive answer, but it appears the wind deflectors remained until the introduction of the staggered waist windows with a different arrangement all together. 

 

I have only had a cursory glance at the 1/48th HK kit but if the chin turret is a direct scaling down of the 1/32 kit the rear of chin turret will need some work. It maybe worth checking if they have included the two small clear panels on the rear (which were removable to give access to the guns) and I think the shell ejector slots were too big from memory. However, if you have the guns facing forward it solves the problem, but most B-17s when parked had the turrets rotated to the side to give armourers access to the turret interior via the clear panels. Being rotated also stopped dust etc getting into the barrels during takeoff. 
 

Here’s a great set of images from a mod-centre, including the addition of the three pane waist windows: https://www.facebook.com/pg/ghostofww2/photos/?tab=album&album_id=674960093047083

 

Notice too the lack of internal paint - good to see plenty of yours in NMF!

Edited August 16, 2020 by tomprobert

[woody37]

Hi Tom,

 

Brilliant mate, I haven't come across that page before, it gives all the answers step by step

 

Unfortunately, they've made the same mistake on the chin turret so it will need some work. I will probably just fill the slots and use black decals to represent the windows for ease. 

 

Yes, I looked at lots of photo's and read many threads before embarking on the interior. Thought I'd play safe. Must of been dazzling in that nose with the sun reflecting off everything! 

 

Thanks

[Matt B]

Looks great!  Think I’m going to steal your methods on the elevators and the rear crew door.  I got a nice rounded edge on the elevators and was trying to do the same on the horizontal stabs but I may just blank them off straight like you did and save the fuss since that looks pretty good to me.

 

Hows the fit of the left wing at the wing root for you?  Test fitting on mine, the right wing was nice and flush on the top but the left was sitting a little high on the top.  I think it may be something with the locking mechanism pushing it apart once it’s in position so I think carving away some plastic on the locking tabs may fix it.  Didn’t know if this was a common thing or if it’s just mine.  
 

Keep up the great progress!  I may just end up pulling mine out sooner than I thought after seeing all this.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Matt B

[woody37]

4 hours ago, Matt B said:

Looks great!  Think I’m going to steal your methods on the elevators and the rear crew door.  I got a nice rounded edge on the elevators and was trying to do the same on the horizontal stabs but I may just blank them off straight like you did and save the fuss since that looks pretty good to me.

 

Hows the fit of the left wing at the wing root for you?  Test fitting on mine, the right wing was nice and flush on the top but the left was sitting a little high on the top.  I think it may be something with the locking mechanism pushing it apart once it’s in position so I think carving away some plastic on the locking tabs may fix it.  Didn’t know if this was a common thing or if it’s just mine.  
 

Keep up the great progress!  I may just end up pulling mine out sooner than I thought after seeing all this.

I thought about rounding the tail plane joint off, but it's not too bad so recommend the flat approach. 

 

I had issues fitting the wings after gluing them so had to do some filing, possibly because there was primer build up on the stubs from working on the fuselage. The left one was sitting a little too high as you say but it isn't too bad now as I sanded the top of the slot to allow the wing to sit lower although with the top flush, both wings stick out slightly at the bottom. There's a little rotation possible on both wings now as a result of the sanding but the joints are tight so it's not a problem.

 

Be good to see your on the go again

 

[woody37]

Got the clear parts fitted yesterday so the next job is masking up ready for the paint. Fit of the parts is excellent. I had to skim the little slots in the front of the cheek gun windows as they protruded a little bit but that was the only issue and a very minor one at that. 

 

 

 

[AdrianMF]

What a terrific build! Learning lots about B17s on this one. Keep up the good work!

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Matt B]

Looking great, Neil.  The dropped elevators really add that "look" to the tail.

[woody37]

8 hours ago, AdrianMF said:

What a terrific build! Learning lots about B17s on this one. Keep up the good work!

 

Regards,

Adrian

Me too, although I know it's overall shape well, learning the subtle differences on marks and detail elements on the overall aircraft is something I'm picking up as people share info and I research pics.

[woody37]

Got the fuselage masked up this evening, thank god for Eduard masks! They save so much time. I'm going to paint it using MRP lacquers so got several colours that I can experiment mixing with the olive green to see what works. This is one of those colours that's difficult to get right due to the fading so it's a but of an experiment.

 

 

 

[heloman1]

Hi Neil, just found your build, I seem to say that a lot!!!

 

Looks like a good kit, nice neat job on the interior and kit seems to go together very well.

 

I'd love another trip to Elvington, travel out of the question form here for the foreseeable future. We should have been in Italy and France now walking and barging... We are consoling ourselves with a trip up to Kgalihadi in November. Take the adventure trailer and glamp.

 

Wessex builds are slow at present. Thought I might get somewhere during the lockdown but not. Although I have finished three bike racer paintings.

 

Hope the painting goes well.

 

Colin

[Harry Callahan]

Really great work so far

[woody37]

10 hours ago, heloman1 said:

Hi Neil, just found your build, I seem to say that a lot!!!

 

Looks like a good kit, nice neat job on the interior and kit seems to go together very well.

 

I'd love another trip to Elvington, travel out of the question form here for the foreseeable future. We should have been in Italy and France now walking and barging... We are consoling ourselves with a trip up to Kgalihadi in November. Take the adventure trailer and glamp.

 

Wessex builds are slow at present. Thought I might get somewhere during the lockdown but not. Although I have finished three bike racer paintings.

 

Hope the painting goes well.

 

Colin

I'm sure you will have some great walks without the travel. I got over to Elvington a couple of weeks ago with a few friends although there was some bits not accessible. Loving your bike painting skills

2 hours ago, Harry Callahan said:

Really great work so far

Thanks mate

 

Got the final primer on last night. It gives an opportunity to look for flaws before getting the paint on. There were a few that were dealt with. I'm waiting for some etch to turn up for the engines so I can get them done, masked and fitted so they should be on in the next couple of days.

 

 

Started work on the paint this evening. The rudder got it's yellow coat and the leading edges have their silver on now, the black boots didn't appear to be fitted by this stage of the war? I Also gave the wings a dark wash before painting to darken the recesses up. The silver is MRP, beautiful stuff to spray. The surface detail is great, one of the reasons along with the clear parts why I went for this and not the Revell kit I've got in the stash.

 

 

 

 

The port tail plane was sprayed silver, the starboard neutral grey. The elevators are yet to be painted as one will be a dull painted silver, the other a faded neutral grey as the fabric seemed to fade quicker.

 

 

The yellow was lightened a little with white (tamiya acrylic colours). A touch more white was added and sprayed to mimic light reflections against the contoured fabric but it hasn't come out in the photo.

 

Getting there slowly

 

Thanks

[Matt B]

Looking good!  The de-icing boots were a case by case thing.  They were fitted at the factory but being as thin as they were, the rubber was easily ripped to shreds by flak and caused quite a bit of drag when damaged so some planes had them removed as soon as they got in theater before even seeing combat while others had them removed once damaged.  Yet some other planes kept them for quite some time.  They were a maintenance headache so I don’t think any of the ground crews were too quick to replace them once removed.  Chances are if the weather was bad enough to need them, you probably wouldn’t be flying anyways.  Can’t really go wrong with what you choose.  I’ve always been partial to the bare metal leading edges myself.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Matt B

[heloman1]

Love the primer and dark wash, almost looks like a 3D rendering.

 

Colin

[Mancunian airman]

Fascinating insight to the B17 . . .  it only when somebody starts a build such an aircraft that they bring to the fore, the numerous changes applied to an aircraft.

 

(I too hope they down-scale their Lancaster, I am just rectifying issues with the 40yr + Tamiya one so a updated model would be greatly welcomed).

 

Like everybody else, I look forward to seeing more of the build, the cockpit looked really colorful and busy, cracking job  . . . .

Ian

[tomprobert]

Looking lovely!

 

 

[woody37]

Thanks guys,

 

Ian, it would be great to see a Lanc in this quality. Overall, a thoroughly enjoyable build.

 

That said....one of the more disappointing areas of the kit are the ejector marks in the flap interior surfaces. I'm only planning to drop them slightly for interest so little will be on show but if you plan to drop them and have them on show, this area may need some work and they aren't easy to clean up without damaging the ribs. Perhaps etch replacements would work well here.

 

 

 

I've not done much since, but have been working on some smaller bits prior to the main coats going on such as masking and the engines. Detail in the engines is quite basic. I decided just to add the Eduard etch leads. There's a boat load of other stuff on that sheet but life is too short when you think about how much time would be taken up on something that won't be seen with the cowlings on. 

 

 

 

Cheers

Neil

[tomprobert]

That’s more than enough detail for 1/48 scale and as you say not much is seen with the cowls on anyway. 
 

Just a heads up for when it comes to installing the landing gear - the main legs are too long and therefore the model sits too high - this error was carried through from the 1/32nd kit. The legs are molded as if there is no weight on them - the oleos are fully extended and a simple solution is remove a little from the struts and pin and reset. I did this on both of my 1/32 versions and it improved the overall sit of the model hugely 

[woody37]

4 hours ago, tomprobert said:

That’s more than enough detail for 1/48 scale and as you say not much is seen with the cowls on anyway. 
 

Just a heads up for when it comes to installing the landing gear - the main legs are too long and therefore the model sits too high - this error was carried through from the 1/32nd kit. The legs are molded as if there is no weight on them - the oleos are fully extended and a simple solution is remove a little from the struts and pin and reset. I did this on both of my 1/32 versions and it improved the overall sit of the model hugely 

Hi Tom, I’d read about that problem so will follow your advice. How much approx did you remove?

 

after looking at photos of the engines, there’s a bit below the gearbox casing that appears to of been missed off on the kit so I’ve added and painted them. One of the benefits of working from home, lunch time becomes productive!

[Matt B]

I did the same with mine and I believe I removed about 2.5mm and drilled out both pieces and inserted a small piece of brass rod before reattaching.  Subtle change but I think it adds a touch more realism to the overall look.  As molded, the gear legs would only be that far extended when the plane is airborne.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Matt B

[tomprobert]

6 hours ago, woody37 said:

Hi Tom, I’d read about that problem so will follow your advice. How much approx did you remove?

I think @Matt B has answered the question pretty well above