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HK Models B-17G 1/48 “The Swoose” 463rd BG


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Regarding the fit I'll watch this closely because I've seen the demo model built up at Telford and it looked great in bare plastic with a dark wash to show off the surface detail, yet I've read on Facebook a few times now that this is an ill-fitting bear of a kit. I don't have one yet but I find myself inclined to believe this kit will fit together well if appropriate precision, care and attention is exercised by the builder. People of Facebook have a good platform to make noise but that doesn't actually mean they're any good at building - by that I mean I know the 1/48 Airfix Hurricane fits together with minimal filler in one or two tiny little places from first hand experience, but the bull-in-China-shop approach taken by the Facebook modelling community would have you think it needs a sledge hammer and a whole tub of Isopon P38 to build.

 

I'm encouraged to hear that the bits you've fitted so far fit well, as I expected they would!

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1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Regarding the fit I'll watch this closely because I've seen the demo model built up at Telford and it looked great in bare plastic with a dark wash to show off the surface detail, yet I've read on Facebook a few times now that this is an ill-fitting bear of a kit. I don't have one yet but I find myself inclined to believe this kit will fit together well if appropriate precision, care and attention is exercised by the builder. People of Facebook have a good platform to make noise but that doesn't actually mean they're any good at building - by that I mean I know the 1/48 Airfix Hurricane fits together with minimal filler in one or two tiny little places from first hand experience, but the bull-in-China-shop approach taken by the Facebook modelling community would have you think it needs a sledge hammer and a whole tub of Isopon P38 to build.

 

I'm encouraged to hear that the bits you've fitted so far fit well, as I expected they would!

I’ve currently got the big bits taped together with all the interior in. It’s pretty good, I’ll get a photo up shortly. I foresee a few minor problems getting the top piece on with minimal filler as there’s no locating tabs so may add a few of my own as I have done the main fuselage for safety’s sake but I suppose the reference point is important. The last build I did this size was the FM Halifax, the one before was a Sanger Stirling so this is a skip down the lane in comparison. The key to any build I find is dry fitting and foreseeing the problems before committing to glue. I haven’t tried any clear bits yet so unable to comment on them so far.

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3 minutes ago, woody37 said:

I’ve currently got the big bits taped together with all the interior in. It’s pretty good, I’ll get a photo up shortly. I foresee a few minor problems getting the top piece on with minimal filler as there’s no locating tabs so may add a few of my own as I have done the main fuselage for safety’s sake but I suppose the reference point is important. The last build I did this size was the FM Halifax, the one before was a Sanger Stirling so this is a skip down the lane in comparison. The key to any build I find is dry fitting and foreseeing the problems before committing to glue. I haven’t tried any clear bits yet so unable to comment on them so far.

 

Wise words indeed, and yes, compared to those Sanger kits this should be a breeze!

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10 hours ago, Rakovica said:

Hi, glad to help. 🙂

 

Until a better photo appear, here's one of its left side, the second plane in row is almost certainly "The Swoose".

 

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Courtesy of Wilbur Wannenburg web page.

Thanks for sharing these mate. I've cropped using photoshop and tried to contrast the colours more (about all I know how to do-ish!). It looks as though there is some chipping on the tail and possibly some artwork too below the serial number. This appears to be a common place to apply artwork in this squadron too so wouldn't be surprised. I can't tell whether it's a light reflection or whether there's some artwork above the two small cheek windows too. It seems unusual to only have artwork on the starboard side on an aircraft which is all that's included in the decal sheet.

 

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Here's some photo's to show the fit with a painted interior fitted. There's a few gaps but when you apply pressure to the fuselage halves to replicate them glued, most of the gaps go. some light filler will be needed but nothing to worry about

 

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And here is progress on the interior. Ignore the wonky navigators table, it needs regluing! I've used some PE stuff in the cockpit but still more to go in along with other detail. I'm not going mad on the interior as most if it can't be seen. The yellow seat cushions (inflatable?) are made from bluetac. 

 

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4 hours ago, woody37 said:

Thanks for sharing these mate. I've cropped using photoshop and tried to contrast the colours more (about all I know how to do-ish!). It looks as though there is some chipping on the tail and possibly some artwork too below the serial number. This appears to be a common place to apply artwork in this squadron too so wouldn't be surprised. I can't tell whether it's a light reflection or whether there's some artwork above the two small cheek windows too. It seems unusual to only have artwork on the starboard side on an aircraft which is all that's included in the decal sheet.

 

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Looking great so far! 🙂

 

As about the left side personal markings, I've been extensively researching the 15th AF B-17 units for more than a decade and also talked with several people associated with the 463rd BG, the general opinion is that "The Swoose" didn't have any artwork nor name on the left side. It's noteworthy that it was one of the most famous and most often photographed of the unit's B-17s, still the above photo is probably the only known of its left side, which might imply there was nothing colourful to take a photo there. I'd also say the bright details below the tail serial number you noticed were just a chipped OD paint, though the tail art was indeed quite common in the 463rd BG, but again I don't think this particular B-17 carried it. Course, it's up to you to decide.

 

As you building "The Swoose" as it appeared late in the war, here's an interesting photo to show the extensive weathering and faded OD, most probably taken in 1945.

 

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Photo credit Facebook.

Edited by Rakovica
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And a better quality in flight photo, note the so-called ''pie slice'' unit marking repeated on the upper horizontal stabilizer, which was a unique feature of the 15th AF bomb groups.

Now the question is whether this was painted on the replaced left (natural metal) horizontal stabilizer as well, in which case it should be white/transparent Y inside black pie slice!

 

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Also note the dirt partially covering the national star & bars marking on the upper left wing.

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Thanks @Rakovica, what you say about the left side makes sense. They certainly approached their markings differently, thst tail plane code is another strange one, what a great and interesting subject. There’s plenty of fun to be had when I get to the weathering stage!

 

thanks for your help, it’s also furling my motivation :)

 

neil

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You're welcome, here are a few more then. 🙂

 

The first photo is not ''The Swoose'' but some other unidentified fellow 463rd BG B-17G, still I think its faded and weathered appearance will be a good guidance how to finish your model.

 

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And a cheerful Col. Kurtz by the waist art.

 

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Keep it up!

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On 8/2/2020 at 7:48 AM, Rakovica said:

And another one, Col. Frank Kurtz is kneeling in the middle.

 

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Can't thank you enough for sharing these photos mate :)

 

The cockpit are and main internals are largely done now with the addition of some Eduard etch where it can be seen.

 

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An area that does show a lot of internals is the nose with that huge blister out front so I want to do it justice. I got some ammo belts earlier this year that look rather nice so if I can manipulate them in to position, I want to connect them between the ammo boxes and the guns. Fingers crossed on this! It will need the windows fitting in place early on which is something I try to avoid unless necessary. 

 

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The Italian 15th AF bases were notorious for their mud and dirt, you could do the weathering almost like on a ground vehicle.

Also of interest is the opening below the waist gunner window, obviously added on the field at some point, though I'm not sure of its real purpose.

 

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On 8/6/2020 at 3:33 PM, Rakovica said:

The Italian 15th AF bases were notorious for their mud and dirt, you could do the weathering almost like on a ground vehicle.

Also of interest is the opening below the waist gunner window, obviously added on the field at some point, though I'm not sure of its real purpose.

 

 

It's certainly going to be a test of weathering skills!

 

Got a few hours at the bench today so detailed the nose interior

 

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The starboard cheek gun ammo still needs to be connected to the ammo box once the two halves are joined up.

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On 03/08/2020 at 10:00, Rakovica said:

You're welcome, here are a few more then. 🙂

 

The first photo is not ''The Swoose'' but some other unidentified fellow 463rd BG B-17G, still I think its faded and weathered appearance will be a good guidance how to finish your model.

 

img172-a.jpg

 

And a cheerful Col. Kurtz by the waist art.

 

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Keep it up!

There's only room in this bird for ONE Col Kurtz lol... lovely model so far.. thanks for sharing

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Over the last couple of evenings, the fuselage has been stitched up. Some filler was needed on the lower joins which was expected given the amount of gubbins stuffed inside but nothing major. I deliberated attaching the nose halves to the main fuselage before assembly but didn't in the end. If I build another (F model if they release one), I will do so then as there was a very slight misalignment that needed sanding out. Nothing Rosie riveter and a touch over the lines with a scriber won't sort though. Primer was run over the fuselage to check for defects that needed addressing and the nose join has been fettled since  priming hence the variation in finish. 

 

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Cheers

Neil

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On 8/6/2020 at 9:33 AM, Rakovica said:

The Italian 15th AF bases were notorious for their mud and dirt, you could do the weathering almost like on a ground vehicle.

Also of interest is the opening below the waist gunner window, obviously added on the field at some point, though I'm not sure of its real purpose.

 

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Have seen something similar on 15th AF Liberators. About 99% certain it’s a modification to allow waist gunners to put bales of chaff out. It’s about the right size for the little cardboard boxes the strips came in. Highly suggest Alfred Price’s “Instruments of Darkness” for a history of EW during WW2.

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6 hours ago, easixpedro said:

Have seen something similar on 15th AF Liberators. About 99% certain it’s a modification to allow waist gunners to put bales of chaff out. It’s about the right size for the little cardboard boxes the strips came in. Highly suggest Alfred Price’s “Instruments of Darkness” for a history of EW during WW2.

 

That's a reasonable thought, thanks.

 

Neil, it starting to look like the real thing, seems that the HKM 1/48 kit got the B-17 fuselage outline quite accurate, definitely better than their 1/32 kit. Looking forward to see it finished. 🙂

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13 hours ago, easixpedro said:

Have seen something similar on 15th AF Liberators. About 99% certain it’s a modification to allow waist gunners to put bales of chaff out. It’s about the right size for the little cardboard boxes the strips came in. Highly suggest Alfred Price’s “Instruments of Darkness” for a history of EW during WW2.

I wasn't aware of them using Window in daylight raids so thank you for sharing. Would you know what that thing is on the gun frame? It looks like some kind of coiled spring, perhaps for gun centralisation?

6 hours ago, Rakovica said:

 

That's a reasonable thought, thanks.

 

Neil, it starting to look like the real thing, seems that the HKM 1/48 kit got the B-17 fuselage outline quite accurate, definitely better than their 1/32 kit. Looking forward to see it finished. 🙂

Thanks mate. @Cees Broere mentioned that they'd done some re-work on the nose. Here's some more pics with a few of the transparencies on. I'm really liking the look of it. The only real let down for me is the outer engines being about 3mm too high but I'm not tackling them as it would mess up the rather nice wing surface detailing. 

 

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22 hours ago, woody37 said:

I wasn't aware of them using Window in daylight raids so thank you for sharing. Would you know what that thing is on the gun frame? It looks like some kind of coiled spring, perhaps for gun centralisation?

 

I'm not sure what that is. Definitely a coiled spring. Perhaps something to help with recoil? Obviously a field modification. But I've seen tons of those on 15th AF birds. Including ones that covered the center windows on the ball turret while on the ground to keep mud from blocking the window. A lot of the 15th AF BGs have fascinating web pages. My great uncle flew with the 461st and theirs is one of the best (www.461st.org) They have mission flimsies and debriefs/photos of nearly every raid flown, and photos of every plane both original and replacements. There are a TON of field mods on their birds. I was fascinated to find that the airplane he flew in the most was fitted with APY-2 Carpet Jammers (he was a radio man and one of their duties was to operate the jammers--fascinating to me as I was an EWO for 20+ years). That airplane was also modified with a little chute like this B-17.

 

Off on a tangent for sure, but I can't recommend Price's work enough!  He was one of the original radar boffins and very influential in that field. Thanks for sharing your work--it looks great!

-Peter

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5 hours ago, easixpedro said:

I'm not sure what that is. Definitely a coiled spring. Perhaps something to help with recoil? Obviously a field modification. 

That’s actually part of the mount and from what I’ve seen in other photos, that was typical of mounts in the 3 panel windows as well as early Douglas staggered one panel windows.  On the 3 panel windows a canvas boot was attached on the inside to keep the elements out while on Douglas windows the boot was on the outside.   I imagine the spring helped control the up and down movement and returned the gun to a certain position when not in use much like the nose guns with their pulleys and springs.

 

Im currently trying to find good reference photos to show this....I did a lot of organizing of photos on my computer a few months back (I do photography on the side) but for the life of me I can’t remember where I put my B-17 reference pics.

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