Lancaster B1 Special PD130

[224 Peter]

A few comments, I'll go back in on Friday to measure the missing dimensions. 

 

The column is central to the seat pan. 

Between the front of the seat pan and the cockpit wall, mounted centrally on the floor is a red T shaped handle. This is the master fuel dump control. 

On the RHS of the seat plinth there is a forward mounted map pocket, behind that is a box section that takes the chain from the large elevator trim wheel beside the pilots seat. There are two other trim "Star Wheels" for rudder and aileron on the same block, they are connected to bowden cables, not chain. So I'm not sure if the second pocket is authentic. I'll get a photo on Friday. 

The small oval window between the Pilot and RO positions is not present on the B1 Special as it is obscured by equipment used by the navigator: the larger window is. Please, if possible, check the A/C you are making and it it isn't there it needs to be filled. 

 

We have a DVD with about 200 AV Roe drawings, both GA and details.  Thanks for the offer!!

[224 Peter]

More on the Pilots seating position! 

 

First, the trim controls. 

 

 

The trim controls sit to the right of the pilots seat. The big red/brown wheel is the elevator trim and is controlled by a chain that  is boxed in on the side of the plinth. There will be a wooden block on the top, with holes for the chain and some other bowden cables. 

The box measures 1.5" x 6.25" ,the back edge is 6.5" from the back corner of the seat plinth. 

 

this is the trim module from above. 

 

 

Next, the front of the pilots seat, showing clearly it is centered on the column: note the heavy cast column stop. 

 

 

Note the blue double bungee down on the far right, this is the spring that tensions the seat!! 

 

There is another cast metal column stop that sits under the edge of the seat, as the next photo shows. 

 

 

It would be virtually impossible to take the last two photos in a complete aircraft, likewise the next photo that shows how the rear of the plinth is attached to the frame, taken from outside the aircraft.

 

 

 

Ignore the two struts in front of the red tape, they are a pair of cockpit windows!! 

 

Some dimensions: the extension extends 6.25" back and is 1" wide, it is the same depth as the seat plinth, which is a box section. 

 

I re-measured the engine control column, it is 5" wide and 10" deep where it joins the plinth, so my drawing needs correcting. 

The distance from the RHS of the column aperture to the side of the plinth is 19". As mentioned above the seat is centralised over the centre line of the column hole. 

 

 

[224 Peter]

Correction....

 

Well, I can't read my own notes... the drawing I produced has a couple of real errors....

 

1. The engine control column,  as noted it is shown far too large. 

2. The distance between the control column aperture and the LHS of the plinth is 12", not 4.  The width of the slot is 8"" and the distance to the RHS of the plinth is 11", the total width is 31" which measures correctly. 

 

I'll re-draw and re-post. 

Again, apologies. I hope no one has cut plastic....😱

 

[Ripaman]

Hi Peter I was just wondering about that I was drawing the plinth to scale and it was not working, just wondering with a picture I saw is the front of plinth have about 5 or 6" of being square before it angles to the engines controls ?

 

Regards

Richard

[Ripaman]

Hi Peter using your dimensions I have drawn to a scale of 11/2" = 1'-0" 

You did say you did not know the angle on the back RHS where you have 10" I think with it drawn to a scale I come up with approx 53.5 deg  so if this is wrong it will move either way the 29" to to engine controls., do have a couple of ? on drawing but I think this is a lot better than the model not sure how they could have got this so wrong 

 

 

I would like to say again a big thank you for getting this information and will be back with more dimension needed for the engine control head where all the levers are 

 

Regards

Richard

[224 Peter]

Richard, 

 

I didn't have a protractor to hand to measure the angle, but by eye it is 45 degrees. 

Most of the pilots plinth to floor space is sheeted over, there are some bits that live underneath. 

Great work: I also really don't understand how HK got it all so wrong! Perhaps the fact the pilots seat rises up and down fooled them, so they set the plinth height to make the seat in the high position.....

[Ripaman]

Peter

 

Just added what the dimension would be if the angle is as per my scaled drawing with your dimensions, we know the width is 31" so one way will be 6" (if it was 45 deg the corner would have been 8 1/2" instead of 10") so measuring the other length it came to 8" (which makes it 10") so could you put a straight edge on the back of plinth and measure to the corner to confirm 

 

 

Did cut some plastic last night and made plinth floor to the drawings 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

Richard

[224 Peter]

I'll try to drop in on Wednesday....

[Ripaman]

Thanks Peter

Regards

Richard

[Ripaman]

Hi Peter,

Went back to the  A.V Roe drawing and rescaled it to the new dimensions as below.

 

43.5" Floor to Canopy Rail

25.5" from Plinth to Canopy Rail

So floor to Plinth is now 18"

 

Now the rescale has come out spot on and the Plinth floor came out 52" as well  (1:32 scale 1.625")

 

 

 

Also got a dimension of 17" (or could be 16.5" ) from front of plinth floor to front of engine control column then did the 29" from there back to the back of plinth and guess what it leaves 6" to the back so your eyes saying it looks like was 45 deg is correct, redrew the plinth again and this is what it looks like  scale 1 1/2" = 1'-0"  so not sure were 10" goes?

 

 

Bought one of those resin seats on ebay and it came couple of days ago,  put a 1/32 scale figure from a  1/32 Mosquito in the seat hope I can get some dimensions of the seat

 

 

 

Peter could you measure the center to center length way of the mounting posts as well.

 

Regards

Richard

[224 Peter]

Interesting...

Yes, I'll measure up the seat. 

 

There is something wrong with either the model seat or model pilot.... When I sit in the seat the seat back comes up to my shoulders, so the seat belts go over my shoulder blade. I'm 5' 8: tall...and 11.5 stone. 

The seat is designed to take either a cushion or a seat type parachute, so the seat pan upper edges are level with the underside of a leg and the arm rests are nicely where your elbow rests. The RHS arm rest swings up to facilitate entry. On that ram rest is a cable that controls the seat belt lock, it can be free to allow movement, or locked. 

 

Have you checked the pilot for size, he should be about my size....?

 

[Ripaman]

Peter

 

The pilot is made by Tamiya from the 1/32 Mosquito so got my wife to measure my back as I was sitting down and I came in at 26.5" she was 23" so took the 1/32 chap and filed a bit more of the bum because it came with the parachute he now sits at 51/64" x 32 = 25.5" so it does confirm the seat is to small for 1/32

 

 

 

 

 

In the drawing they have drawn a guy but has his shoulders up from the backrest so I have doctored the HKM seat around the drawing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are the two side by side, did let the guy know that his seat was not to scale and did ask him if he could reprint one to 1/32 scale, but he returned the payment which was good of him.

 

 

If you can get a lot of dimensions that would be very helpful Peter do hope I am not bothering you to much just trying to get the cockpit to look right.

 

Regards

Richard

 

 

[Ripaman]

Peter

Going back to my re scaled drawing I measure 1/16” for the plinth thickness which works out to be 2” real scale and you have said dimension is 3” thick can you double check please I am working on building the truss which goes underneath 

Did take one of your pictures worked out a scale at a given point and it comes out as 2” 🤔

 

Regards

Richard

 

[DonH]

Now this is interesting. There has been a lot of posts around tinterweb that the HK seat is way to big. I have my doubts and this pilot figure seems to confirm that it may be OK. I believe that some of the discussion on the seat was triggered by the plinth being wrong and not the seat. However, I need to fondle more plastic to be sure.

[Ripaman]

Hi Don

I have doctored HKM seat quite a bit do have a second Lanc will put that one together so that you can see how much 👍

 

Regards

Richard

[DonH]

1 minute ago, Ripaman said:

Hi Don

I have doctored HKM seat quite a bit do have a second Lanc will put that one together so that you can see how much 👍

 

Regards

Richard

Thanks, that would be interesting. I am not averse to a bit of doctoring, I just need to know what I'm cutting before the scalpel comes out. I apply the same principle to modelling 🙂

 

 

[Mancunian airman]

This is a fascinating discovery concerning the seat, (Shame about the new seat of which I have) so looks like I will be puting the original seat in my model Lanc . . .

[Ripaman]

Put together the kit seat and you will see it is to big 

 

 

 

Did my changes (doctoring ) to the seat before I came across this blog but this will give you an idea, Peter can confirm if I'm out

 

 

 

 

 

The kit seat width I have not changed so that has come out as being 16" wide

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

Richard

[Mancunian airman]

I too have already doctored my seat so the base is square rather elongated as your pic shows  . . .

[gunpowder17]

This is great stuff. Cant say im too bothered about the cockpit in my full kit , but i have bought the nose art kit too so this will be invaluable for that.Thanks for the effort!

[224 Peter]

Full seat dimensions tomorrow (29 March 2021)

We have to get this right! 

 

I'll also check the seat plinth depth. 

 

Peter

[224 Peter]

Here we go. 

 

1. the seat plinth is 2" deep. 

2. the seat base is 14.5" front to back and 18.5" wide

3. the back is 20" tall. 

4. The rear pivot bar is 23" left to right and the centre of the pivot bar is 4.5" from the plinth.

5. With the seat in the high position the back base of the seat is 10" from the floor,  so the top of the seat is 30" from the plinth. 

6. The seat pan is 6" deep to take either a parachute of upholstered cushion. 

 

Now some photos........

 

1. The seat: 

Note the seat back is well padded, the edges of the seat are rounded and the cushion in the pan doesn't really fit as the pan is shaped to take a seat parachute. I should have taken a photo! 

The seat is in the highest raised position. 

The seat adjustment lever is visible to the left and the right side arm rest is raised. 

Note also that from the block that holds the upper seat belt there is a steel cable to the release block on the seat back. 

 

 

 

This time a view from the left, through the fuselage skin , seat belts in place and clearly showing how the seat cushion doesn't properly fit. 

Some good detail of the trim controls. 

The mesh thing on the seat is an emergency oxygen bottle holder. 

 

 

Finally, a "selfie" of the pilot, showing how the seat belt fits over his shoulder. 

 

 

As ever, I hope that these are all helpful! 

 

 

[Mancunian airman]

Thanks again Peter, all very much appreciated

Ian

[Ripaman]

Thanks very much for these measurement Peter as Ian says above very appreciated 

 

Regards

Richard 

[DonH]

Marvellous, thank you!

 

I think the seat cushion is fine, it looks like it is intended to cater to the comfort needs of the average RAF pilot.

 

Given that there are places in a Lanc to stow a parachute, do you think the pilot ever actually flew wearing it? I think I would prefer a comfy cushion. Although, that doesn't speak to the need for speedy evacuation in the event of an emergency.