1946 FAA roundel question

[TonyOD]

Hi - I'm researching a particular aircraft for an upcoming project: De Havilland DH.89 Dominie (Dragon Rapide) X7394, which served as an air ambulance with the Royal Navy but sadly crashed on Scafell Pike in the Lake District in 1946.

 

I have an excellent side-on photograph of the aircraft, but there's nothing available from above or below. My question relates to the roundels on the upper surfaces: the Xtradecal sheet I'm going to use has blue/red low visibility roundels of the type I'm familiar with from WW2 planes and would seem consistent with the fuselage roundels that have a narrow white circle.

 

I've turned up another nicely built example that has blue/white/red upper roundels that don't seem consistent with the fuselage roundels to my eye, but I don't have any expertise on this (plus the red crosses inside as opposed to outside the roundels, but that's another question).

 

I'm not here to cast aspersions on other people's builds, but can anyone give me a pointer on which might be the right way to go?

 

Many thanks

[Graham Boak]

Post 1944 the upper wing roundels should have been changed to red/white/blue ("C type")  in the same proportions as the fuselage roundel ("C1 type").  The model shows the slightly later post-war roundels with a larger white rim and larger red centre ("D type") on the wings.  1946 seems a bit early for this and the fuselage roundels would have been changed as well.  Given the well-tapered wings, I am not surprised to see the Red Cross inboard of the roundels, but shouldn't the roundels be clear of the ailerons?  

[Work In Progress]

8 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

1946 seems a bit early for this and the fuselage roundels would have been changed as well.  Given the well-tapered wings, I am not surprised to see the Red Cross inboard of the roundels, but shouldn't the roundels be clear of the ailerons?  

June 1947 onwards for D type roundels so I would need photographic evidence to support that particular model as being correct. The upper wing roundels should indeed be clear of the ailerons, and usually were on Dominies (as of course on other types). C type upper wing roundels would be theoretically correct but I would not be wholly astonished to see legacy B type upper wing roundels surviving on second-line types into 1946, and in some cases all the way into 1947, as it was not necessarily the highest priority, especially where they were difficult to get at (as in the case of a Rapide).

Edited July 23, 2020 by Work In Progress

[TonyOD]

1 hour ago, Work In Progress said:

June 1947 onwards for D type roundels so I would need photographic evidence to support that particular model as being correct. The upper wing roundels should indeed be clear of the ailerons, and usually were on Dominies (as of course on other types)

Thanks - according that bastion of accuracy Wikipedia Type C roundels were "not used on upper surfaces 1942-1945" (source: SAM article on heavy bombers) but were used on "light surfaces [and it doesn't get any lighter than white] July 1942-1947". Just been looking at some late war Coastal Command planes in lightish grey and they carry type C on the upper surfaces and C1 on the fuselage.

 

This a/c was built in 1941 and was an air ambulance with 782 NAS on and off until its untimely demise in August 1946. I say on and off because even before it crashed once and for all it was the subject of various mishaps, last recorded repair May 1944

 

The type D roundels on the model certainly don't look right, but the low-vis type B ones don't look right either, even though that combination was commonly used. I think maybe because I've just built a FAA Mosquito, also 1946, whose upper and fuselage roundels were matching type C/C1.

 

It will end up being one of these "best guess" situations I suppose. I wonder where Hannants/Xtradecal got their information?

 

(Just realised the other build also omits the extended door configuration that X7394 had to allow easier loading of stretchers... and the red cross on the fuselage is much too small... so I won't use it as a benchmark for accuracy.)

Edited July 23, 2020 by TonyOD

[Graham Boak]

You can add Halifax SOE aircraft in Italy and C.VIII transports to the list of those with upper wing Type C.  I am sure more can be found.  The order was from January 1st 1945.  However I should add that those CC types in lightish grey were in fact in Extra Dark Sea Grey - yes it did fade rapidly, though of course glare on upper surfaces helped to lighten the appearance.

 

Oddly proportioned roundels were occasionally seen, and a wider than proper paintbrush on a B roundel might well have produced such an appearance - were it too large anyway.  I suspect the Xtradecal creator just made his best guess - until be see a photo proving it we are left with legitimate doubt whether it was a very good guess or not. 

[TonyOD]

5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

until be see a photo proving it we are left with legitimate doubt whether it was a very good guess or not. 

To quote the bard, ay, there's the rub; and I'd be surprised if more than one photograph of X7394 exists. And if that's the case I'll be glad because it cost me a tenner to download a high resolution copy of the one I've got  . 1946, white paint job, type C sort of sings to me.

 

 

[TonyOD]

@Graham Boak @Work In Progress I fear I may have wasted your time... I've ordered the Xtradecal sheet but it hasn't arrived yet. I was looking at the rather undersized images on their website where it looks like low-vis on the top. Just pulled up some larger images on eBay and there it is... C/C1 all along. Apologies, my eyesight isn't what it was.

 

Definitely not D though!

 

Edit... hang on... further examination...

 

Second edit... nope, I was looking at the underside. Definitely low vis for the top, they're saying 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by TonyOD

[Work In Progress]

I would be happy using B-type. They do seem to be the right sort of size for not encroaching on the ailerons. TBH in commenting I did nnot look at the Xtradecal sheet, just to the built model that you linked to

[Work In Progress]

2 hours ago, TonyOD said:

This a/c was built in 1941 and was an air ambulance with 782 NAS on and off until its untimely demise in August 1946.

The build date isn;t really anything to go on, though

[Dave Fleming]

Chipping in as Tony and I have been discussing this on another thread, I'd go for CI based on a couple of things:

 

 - It was unusual to have an all white ambulance during the war, they usually had camo uppers - suggesting that X7394 was repainted post war (and she certainly looks pristine in the photograph) so CI would be most likely at that time. 

 - Other 782 Dominies of this period had CI upper roundels, even after the early post war FAA R/W/B roundel was introduced on the side and lower surfaces (NF867, NF848) - these were both in silver and probably in 1947 (The photo of NF867 is dated July 1946 but even here we don't get snow on the ground in July.)

 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Dave Fleming

[TonyOD]

2 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

(The photo of NF867 is dated July 1946 but even here we don't get snow on the ground in July.)

 

LOL. North of the border, anything's possible!

 

 

Captions can't be trusted. My photo of X7394 is from the SCRAN picture library. The caption says the photo was taken in 1948 - two years after she crashed...

[TonyOD]

7 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

 - It was unusual to have an all white ambulance during the war, they usually had camo uppers - suggesting that X7394 was repainted post war (and she certainly looks pristine in photographs) so CI would be most likely at that time. 

 - Other 782 Dominies of this period had CI upper roundels, even after the early post war FAA R/W/B roundel was introduced on the side and lower surfaces (NF867, NF848) - these were both in silver and probably in 1947 (The photo of NF867 is dated July 1946 but even here we don't get snow on the ground in July.)

 

This all makes good sense. Thank you. I really want to get this one right...

[TonyOD]

I seem to be discussing X7394 on two fronts now...

 

I learned today that this a/c is represented in one of the Tasman reboxings of the Heller moulding. Now Tasman's instructions are exceptionally comprehensive and give the impression of a lot of trouble taken over research... but their take is this:

 

 

Surely no British plane would be carrying this kind of roundel as early as August 1946?

Edited July 24, 2020 by TonyOD

[EwenS]

The only place would be Japan on aircraft of the squadrons forming part of the British Commonwealth Occupation Force where they replaced SEAC markings to make it obvious to the Japanese people that the British were present. I can’t remember from when exactly but they arrived in April 1946. Found some artwork for 17 squadron suggesting May that year.

[TonyOD]

2 hours ago, EwenS said:

The only place would be Japan on aircraft of the squadrons forming part of the British Commonwealth Occupation Force where they replaced SEAC markings to make it obvious to the Japanese people that the British were present. I can’t remember from when exactly but they arrived in April 1946. Found some artwork for 17 squadron suggesting May that year.

This is next level expertise! So, not RNAS Donibrise near Glasgow then. 

[Seahawk]

After the end of WW2 there was a brief period when the FAA reintroduced roundels in the pre-war Type A proportions.  It was not fleet-wide and not even always uniform on the same airframe.  I don’t why it happened (whether it was an order or some kind of misinterpretation) but offhand I can readily think of examples of this type of roundel on Seafires, Fireflies and Mosquitoes.  I’m sure a flick through the works of Sturtivant et al will produce more.  Such markings were of course superseded by the Type D (in 1947?).

So I think your instinct to trust Tasman was a good one.  It was brief, it was possibly anomalous but it certainly happened, maybe even in Donibristle.
 

@EwenS‘s example is the only such usage I can recall in the RAF.

[Seahawk]

16 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

 I’m sure a flick through the works of Sturtivant et al will produce more.  Such markings were of course superseded by the Type D (in 1947?).

Yes indeed: Oxfords, Ansons, Expeditors, Tiger Moths, ... (and I gave up after the first 100 pages of FAA Aircraft Since 1946).  The Tiger Moth photo dates from 1949 so the style lingered on beyond 1947, mainly, I'd suggest, on legacy types.

 

Getting back closer to the subject of Donibristle ambulance aircraft, there is also incidentally a photo of Dominie X7482 of 782 Squadron taken in 1951.  Still marked with a Red Cross on white circle aft of the roundel, but apparently in overall silver dope with standard post-war style "Type D" roundel on fuselage.  Markings on upper surfaces not visible.

 

PS Those Tasman instructions are a superb resource for Dominie lovers.

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, TonyOD said:

This is next level expertise! So, not RNAS Donibrise near Glasgow then. 

I do hope you weren’t a navigator (or a geography teacher) in a past life.

 

http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/FAA-Bases/Donibristle.htm#.Xxv09MrTWhA

 

[TonyOD]

1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

Getting back closer to the subject of Donibristle ambulance aircraft, there is also incidentally a photo of Dominie X7482 of 782 Squadron taken in 1951.  Still marked with a Red Cross on white circle aft of the roundel, but apparently in overall silver dope with standard post-war style "Type D" roundel on fuselage.  Markings on upper surfaces not visible.

I've seen that photo, it's a nice one.

 

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

the works of Sturtivant et al

 

I'm about to sell a kidney to raise funds for a copy of Sturtivant's FAA "bible"...

 

1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

PS Those Tasman instructions are a superb resource for Dominie lovers.

 

They really are, and downloadable from Scalemates. I might actually see if I can get in touch with them and ask where they got their roundel info from. It's really not a question of second-guessing (their research seems to be exhaustive and exemplary), but I'm really keen on getting this one right. Probably sounds corny but I want to build this Dominie as a kind of memorial to those lost when Merlin V crashed. (I'm planning to visit the crash site on Scafell Pike in the next few weeks).

 

51 minutes ago, EwenS said:

I do hope you weren’t a navigator (or a geography teacher) in a past life.

Oh dear, that is poor! Apologies to any Scots who look in...

 

 

[Seahawk]

31 minutes ago, TonyOD said:

I'm about to sell a kidney to raise funds for a copy of Sturtivant's FAA "bible"...

Unfortunately you won't have enough kidneys.  There's FAA Squadrons and Units, in its third edition and now compiled by Theo Ballance, FAA Aircraft 1939-45 where @mick b, coworker on the first edition, is working on a second edition, FAA Fixed Wing Aircraft Since 1946 and FAA Helicopters Since 1943.  Some books become classics as soon as they appear and, if the topic grabs you, should be snapped up on sight: those 4 are some (the late Roger Lindsay's Cold War Shield volumes are others).  The way information is migrating on line, I wouldn't be surprised if the last 2 FAA books never run to a 2nd edition.

[mick b]

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Unfortunately you won't have enough kidneys.  There's FAA Squadrons and Units, in its third edition and now compiled by Theo Ballance, FAA Aircraft 1939-45 where @mick b, coworker on the first edition, is working on a second edition, FAA Fixed Wing Aircraft Since 1946 and FAA Helicopters Since 1943.  Some books become classics as soon as they appear and, if the topic grabs you, should be snapped up on sight: those 4 are some (the late Roger Lindsay's Cold War Shield volumes are others).  The way information is migrating on line, I wouldn't be surprised if the last 2 FAA books never run to a 2nd edition.

As much as I would love to be working on these books I believe you have the wrong man

 

Mike

[Seahawk]

32 minutes ago, mick b said:

As much as I would love to be working on these books I believe you have the wrong man

 

Mike

Oh dear: apologies!  I do believe that Mick Burrow is on this site somewhere, even if an occasional visitor.

[ClaudioN]

7 hours ago, Seahawk said:

those 4 are some

That is, if you don't mind the pre-WW II period. Otherwise, you also have:

- "Fleet Air Aircraft, Units and Ships, 1920-1939", by Ray Sturtivant and Dick Cronin

- "Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units, 1911-1919", by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page

 

[Seahawk]

52 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

That is, if you don't mind the pre-WW II period. Otherwise, you also have:

- "Fleet Air Aircraft, Units and Ships, 1920-1939", by Ray Sturtivant and Dick Cronin

- "Royal Navy Aircraft Serials and Units, 1911-1919", by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page

Then there's Royal Navy Instructional Airframes by Ray Sturtivant and Rod Burden....   

 

Can any air arm have been so comprehensively and lovingly documented?

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Is there any other air arm that's worth the effort?