Question on Mosquito Paint Scheme

[11bravo]

This is a pretty nice (and commonly seen) picture of a Strike Wing Mossie.   Assuming it's not colorized, does anyone have ideas on this paint scheme?  It looks like it's the Special Duties scheme of EDSG over Sky but if you look at the aft fuselage, it looks like I'm seeing the standard green/grey scheme.   Couple that with the weird coloring on the vertical stab and that rectangular panel on the nose and I'm starting to think that Coastal Command Mossies are nearly as diverse in color as their late war Luftwaffe adversaries.    Also looks like you can see bare metal under the exhausts where the flame suppressor was removed.   Quite an interesting bird! 

[Graham Boak]

Patchy wear and weathering on the EDsG, with a replacement panel on the nose probably in the usual (for fighter Mosquitos) Medium Sea Grey.  The leading edge of the fin has been retouched in fresh EDSG.

[11bravo]

1 minute ago, Graham Boak said:

Patchy wear and weathering on the EDsG, with a replacement panel on the nose probably in the usual (for fighter Mosquitos) Medium Sea Grey.  The leading edge of the fin has been retouched in fresh EDSG.

Wow... that EDSG really fades out quickly.    Good info for weathering my ongoing Mossie build.   Do you think this pic is the real thing or possibly colorized?  

[Graham Boak]

I think it is the real thing.  EDSG did fade rapidly, although I would expect it to appear bluer when it did - possibly there has been some adjustment to the colour balance in the picture.  However any paint left out over a north Scottish winter would fade pretty rapidly.

 

I recall being told when visiting Kinloss that the main road inland of the base acted as a boundary in winter, with the snow covering every thing inland and the seaward side remaining open land.  Whilst not doubting the basic truth of this (do any Moray modellers confirm or deny it?) I suspect that the snow line isn't quite as rigid as this implies, and the winters can still be very harsh on the airfields on the Moray plain.

[Wulfman]

Very interesting photo, thanks for posting.

 

Wulfman

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Whilst being otherwise familiar with that photograph which I too believe was one of the many genuine ones taken under Max Aitken's command, one thing I'd never noticed before is that it appears to have a Beaufighter-style strike camera on the nose.

[Graham Boak]

Note also the 25lb armour-piercing heads on the rockets, as normal for shipping strikes, rather than the more bulbous 60lb HE heads most kits provide.  Do any kits provide the AP rockets?

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Note also the 25lb armour-piercing heads on the rockets, as normal for shipping strikes, rather than the more bulbous 60lb HE heads most kits provide.  Do any kits provide the AP rockets?

The Tamiya Beaufighter rockets (in 1/48) are the 25lb AP type, but I wouldn't be in a good position to remark on 1/72 scale offerings.

[Dave Swindell]

The photo above is a rather poor copy of one of a series of photo's taken at Banff in feb 1945 by renowned photographer Charles Brown, several of which including this one were in colour.

As noted above, the colour scheme was Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky. The nose machine gun access doors appear to be in original Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey, and as @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies points out, there's an F24 camera mounted in the exreme nose on the centreline in place of the usual gun camera, this was used for taking strike photo's. I built this in 1:72nd from the Tamiya kit with a few mods and an Aires detail set for the cockpit and gun bays, here's my take on it:-

 

[Graham Boak]

Ocean Grey wouldn't have been original, as it was only seen on early Day bombers and (by mistake) on early 2TAF fighter-bombers.  Production fighter bombers were painted in the Night Fighter scheme of Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey, so any spares/replacement panels were likely to have been either in primer (also a grey) or Medium Sea Grey.  The colour of this panel appears light for Ocean Grey - on the principle that it hasn't been on long or it would have been repainted anyway.

[Dave Swindell]

You're right @Graham Boak, don't know where the Ocean Grey came from, the panel on the model is actually painted EDSG and MSG. This airframe had some very faded areas of EDSG, notably on the tail and rear fuselage. The nose gun bay door could be very faded EDSG, replacement in MSG, or grey primer, but whichever is the case the top strip on the centreline with the panel latches appears to have been sprayed with a strip of fresh EDSG. Why the whole panel wasn't resprayed I don't know, but the airframe is a patchwork of fresh and faded paint which made it interesting to model.

[11bravo]

On 7/21/2020 at 6:33 AM, Dave Swindell said:

The photo above is a rather poor copy of one of a series of photo's taken at Banff in feb 1945 by renowned photographer Charles Brown, several of which including this one were in colour.

As noted above, the colour scheme was Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky. The nose machine gun access doors appear to be in original Ocean Grey over Medium Sea Grey, and as @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies points out, there's an F24 camera mounted in the exreme nose on the centreline in place of the usual gun camera, this was used for taking strike photo's. I built this in 1:72nd from the Tamiya kit with a few mods and an Aires detail set for the cockpit and gun bays, here's my take on it:-

Dave,  That's a good looking model!  I'm really surprised to see the EDSG fade to that extent.  I haven't really noticed this in many other pictures of Strike Wing Mosquitoes.  I'm also surprised that the pic above was taken in Feb of 45, from what I've read up on, by then all Banff Mosquitoes would have had the later "duplex" rocket rails fitted.   I figured that this picture was circa mid/late '44.    From a modeling perspective, it's interesting to note the oil stains on the wheels.   The Merlins were known to be oil leakers but typically, the ground crew covered the tires with canvas covers to prevent damage to the rubber from the oil.   Not in this case apparently! 

[EwenS]

“A Separate Little War” detailing the history of the Banff Wing notes the fitting of the double tiered rails and 100 gal drop tanks started on 4 March 1945 with test flights of the new arrangement being made on 6th March and the first operation on 7th March.

[Graham Boak]

They wouldn't all have been refitted at the same time anyway.

[11bravo]

25 minutes ago, EwenS said:

“A Separate Little War” detailing the history of the Banff Wing notes the fitting of the double tiered rails and 100 gal drop tanks started on 4 March 1945 with test flights of the new arrangement being made on 6th March and the first operation on 7th March.

Interesting, I thought it was sooner.  Sounds like those modified rails were only in service for a pretty short time.

[dogsbody]

4 hours ago, EwenS said:

“A Separate Little War” detailing the history of the Banff Wing notes the fitting of the double tiered rails and 100 gal drop tanks started on 4 March 1945 with test flights of the new arrangement being made on 6th March and the first operation on 7th March.

 

Those tanks and rails:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[11bravo]

1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

 

Those tanks and rails:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

I believe that's a prototype setup, since it's missing the guard that protected the rockets from the slipper tank being jettisoned.  Also missing some fins on the RP's.   It's a nice shot of the 25lb AP heads....

 

[Graham Boak]

I think that they were launched in clamped pairs, as there is no clear way to launch a single rocket, and the fins would have interfered with each other.

[11bravo]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I think that they were launched in clamped pairs, as there is no clear way to launch a single rocket, and the fins would have interfered with each other.

Now that's interesting....  I was looking at the picture trying to figure out how the lower set was launched.  Figured the brackets were frangible and simply disintegrated at launch.  Can't believe the ballistics of a coupled rocket cluster were particularly impressive but maybe you are correct? 

Edited July 24, 2020 by 11bravo

[Dave Swindell]

22 hours ago, 11bravo said:

Dave,  That's a good looking model!  I'm really surprised to see the EDSG fade to that extent.  I haven't really noticed this in many other pictures of Strike Wing Mosquitoes.  I'm also surprised that the pic above was taken in Feb of 45, from what I've read up on, by then all Banff Mosquitoes would have had the later "duplex" rocket rails fitted.   I figured that this picture was circa mid/late '44.    From a modeling perspective, it's interesting to note the oil stains on the wheels.   The Merlins were known to be oil leakers but typically, the ground crew covered the tires with canvas covers to prevent damage to the rubber from the oil.   Not in this case apparently! 

Thanks for the complements, the model won a couple of awards at shows that year. EDSG ws notorious for fading and most coastal command photo's show this to some extent or other, especially the banff and Dallachy wings. The ealiest he phot could have been taken would be Dec 44 when the mkIIIa rocket rails fitted to this aircraft were introduced, plus 143 sqn didn't arrive at Banff until Oct 44. The photo's are clearly winter, and Charles Brown (who took this and several other photo's) visited Banff during Feb 45. This photo and the others he took are all noted as Feb 45, I'm pretty sure the date is correct. As noted above, the double stacked rockets weren't introduced until March, and the photo Chris posted is of an early trial. The operational fit had a guard rail to stop the drop tank impacting the rockets when dropped, and the rockets themselves were mounted in a staggered arrangement, with the lower one further forward than the upper so that the normal 4 fin arrangement could be used on the tail. The trial arrangement show had both rockets launched as a fixed pair that remained bolted together. The later double stack arrangement when used on other aircraft allowed the lower rocket to hook onto the mounting of the upper rocket, enabling them to separate in flight, I'm not sure if this was the case for the mosquito, but I see no reason why not.

Note that this aircraft has the mounting units for drop tanks fitted between the inboard pair of rocket rails, so presumably the inboard 2 rails would be removed when drop tanks were carried.

[johnny akes]

Back to the o/p, I don’t think it’s bare metal where the flame suppressor was removed but the original camouflage scheme?

 

[dogsbody]

These are from Aviaeology's Sheet AOD72011 Canadians In Coastal Command #3.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[11bravo]

7 hours ago, johnny akes said:

Back to the o/p, I don’t think it’s bare metal where the flame suppressor was removed but the original camouflage scheme?

 

Hard to tell, the only reason I thought it was bare aluminum is that Tamiya’s 32nd scale Mosqito has silver decals that replicate this.   

[Crimea River]

It would depend on whether the flame dampers were added to an existing cowling as a mod or incorporated during production.

[Blimpyboy]

On 7/24/2020 at 5:47 AM, 11bravo said:

Can't believe the ballistics of a coupled rocket cluster were particularly impressive

A genuine head-scratcher, given the typical ‘accuracy’ and ‘precision’ of these rockets in their singular configuration!