Phantom FG1 cockpit help

[panzerlehr46]

Howdy folks.

Has anybody any advice in terms of references for the cockpit for the RAG FG1 Phantom?,Just seems the FGR2 is covered in images,Any book advice and pointers would be welcome,I seem to remember the Aires FG1 resin cockpit set isnt a true representation of the FG1?.

Many thanks and stay safe all.

Rich.

[71chally]

There are early photos out there but can be hard to find

There are very good cockpit illustrations in the pilots notes, these can be viewed for free by signing on to Avialogs.

 

I can upload pictures sometime of the cockpit of FG.1 XV582 which would be in end of service state, but won't be till later.

[panzerlehr46]

Thanks Chally for replying.Shame Aires made a fudge of the resin set.Then again think the sets needed to be shoe horned into the model.

Cheers from Richard.

[Junchan]

You can download the Phantom FG Mk.1 Aircrew Manual from Aviation Archive blog. There are detailed diagrams of the front and rear cockpit in the manual.

http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2016/11/phantom-fg-mk-1-aircrew-manual.html

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[panzerlehr46]

Thanks Jun.

Regards from Richard.

[71chally]

I have some of the rear cockpit aswel, but struggling to find them right now.

 

Phantom FG.1 XV582 cockpit by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

Phantom FG.1 XV582 cockpit by James Thomas, on Flickr

[panzerlehr46]

Thanks Chally,Good of you,Which U.S Phantom is the FG1 close to?,F4j?

Cheers from Rich.

[71chally]

aw blimey, that's one for someone else really, like @Tailspin Turtle

 

For the cockpit I would rely on the pilots notes and any images that are definitely of an FG.1, check by serial.

I think CMK did an FG.1 cockpit set.

[Duncan B]

10 hours ago, panzerlehr46 said:

Thanks Chally,Good of you,Which U.S Phantom is the FG1 close to?,F4j?

Cheers from Rich.

F-4B I believe but am happy to be corrected.

 

Sad to see that cockpit looking in so poor a condition

 

Duncan B

[RedhillPhil]

I was always under the impression that it was the J which is why Js were acquired by the light blue lot in the 1980s.

[panzerlehr46]

A real conundrum.Im sure i read our Fgs were F4J based but the Fg1s have different cockpit to FGR2s.

Cheers from Rich.

[71chally]

In my mind was that the F-4K (FG.1) was derived from the F-4B and that the F-M (FGR.2) had F-4J lineage, don't know why I think that though.  However I think they are so far removed that I treat them as completely separate variants.

[treker_ed]

According to "McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Air Superiority Legend" by Mark A. Chambers (The History Press 2018), in the chapter on foreign operators it states:

 

"The United Kingdom purchased two Phantom II export variants from the United States that utilised the US Navy F-4J as their base design. The first variant, the F-4K (also known as the Phantom FG.1)... was intended for.. FAA use. The second variant F-4M (also known as the Phantom FGR.2), was intended for use by the RAF".

 

It then goes on to detail the engine changes and weapons changes between the US and UK versions. Sadly the majority of the book is about the US usage of the aircraft and so only covers the absolute basics of the UK usage and design changes of the Phantom, but I did remember that the above info was given about the basis of the US variant used for the UK aircraft.

Edited July 20, 2020 by treker_ed

[Rich51]

Cheers guys.Maybe in time Zukei  Mura or Academy might do some u.k ones but doubtful.Need to get to Raf Museum in Hendon if they have the old FG1 open for viewing.

Rich.

[71chally]

1 hour ago, Rich51 said:

Cheers guys.Maybe in time Zukei  Mura or Academy might do some u.k ones but doubtful.Need to get to Raf Museum in Hendon if they have the old FG1 open for viewing.

Rich.

If that's the cockpit section, I believe that's at Cosford.

[Duncan B]

14 hours ago, RedhillPhil said:

I was always under the impression that it was the J which is why Js were acquired by the light blue lot in the 1980s.

 

13 hours ago, panzerlehr46 said:

A real conundrum.Im sure i read our Fgs were F4J based but the Fg1s have different cockpit to FGR2s.

Cheers from Rich.

 

13 hours ago, 71chally said:

In my mind was that the F-4K (FG.1) was derived from the F-4B and that the F-M (FGR.2) had F-4J lineage, don't know why I think that though.  However I think they are so far removed that I treat them as completely separate variants.

I may have misread the OP's question as to asking which cockpit the FG.1 most resembled which I thought I'd read was the F-4B however if he was asking about the airframe and systems as a whole then it would be closer to the F-4J. When discussing the differences in cockpits between FG.1 and FGR.2 it's really the rear cockpit where the most obvious differences occur as the FGR.2 had additional sidewall panels for the additional weapons systems (INS etc) required for the more dedicated Ground Attack role it was designed for. I will have to check my references to see if the J had a multi-role rear cockpit more akin to the FGR.2 or if it was similar to the F-4B.

 

Duncan B

[Antti_K]

17 hours ago, 71chally said:

In my mind was that the F-4K (FG.1) was derived from the F-4B and that the F-M (FGR.2) had F-4J lineage, don't know why I think that though.  However I think they are so far removed that I treat them as completely separate variants.

I'm with James and Duncan B here; the airframe was "based" on F-4J (like the heavier landing gear and arrestor hook) but the avionics system was a system of its own. The rear cockpit looked like that of F-4B because the fire control system for F-4J wasn't ready back then. Even the first 10 (or so) USN F-4Js flew without radar and fire control sets. Literature suggests that there might have been even more "Lead Nose" F-4Js. The center fuselage of a British Phantom is a completely new design.

 

I was planning a 1/32 scale conversion using the Tamiya kit. During the research I noticed that Tamiya provides rather accurate details for the under surface and almost every panel differs in shape when compared to FG.1 or FGR.2 (I can't recall the door numbers). Further study showed that the hole cockpit should be re-built if one wants it to be accurate.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Duncan B]

On 7/20/2020 at 7:57 PM, treker_ed said:

According to "McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II Air Superiority Legend" by Mark A. Chambers (The History Press 2018), in the chapter on foreign operators it states:

 

"The United Kingdom purchased two Phantom II export variants from the United States that utilised the US Navy F-4J as their base design. The first variant, the F-4K (also known as the Phantom FG.1)... was intended for.. FAA use. The second variant F-4M (also known as the Phantom FGR.2), was intended for use by the RAF".

 

The initial RN order was actual placed in 1964 before the F-4J design was formalised and although it is fair to say the F-4K/M and F-4J are contemporaries the F-4Ks weren't just anglicised clones of the F-4J. Some design elements of the F-4K were actually incorporated into the F-4J design (rather than the other way around) such as the slotted stabilator which was added to the F-4J early in the production run and retro-fitted to earlier F-4Js that didn't initially have it. I think I am correct in saying that the nose leg extension was originally devised for the F-4K and then a single stage version was incorporated into the F-4J design.

 

Duncan B 

[Scout712]

Interesting thread. I just asked myself if the FG-1s serving with the RAF kept their original cockpit layout or were they updated to the FGR-2 standard?

Cheers

Michael

[Duncan B]

10 hours ago, Scout712 said:

Interesting thread. I just asked myself if the FG-1s serving with the RAF kept their original cockpit layout or were they updated to the FGR-2 standard?

Cheers

Michael

They went through a series of modifications over the years but kept the basic FG.1 layout.

 

Duncan B

[Scout712]

Bringing this old thread up again. I am looking for a pic of the rear cockpit of an XT serialled FG.1. My understanding is that XT XXX were trainer configured versions and XV serialled jets not.

Knowing also, that the US NAVY phantoms could be configured with an optional set of flight controls containing of Stick throttles and some basic instrumentation, I wonder how a

XT XXX FG.1 cockpit from 767 squadron would look like. Where there sticks and throttles configured, and if so, how often?

 

Thanks

Michael

[stever219]

@Scout712 XT-serialled FGR. 2s were fitted for dual controls but I don't know for certain if the XT-serialled FG.1s were.  I do seem to recall that 767 NAS "borrowed" some RAF Phantoms (RAF camouflage but "yellow bird" fin insignia and large white RN side numbers on centre fuselage) but I don't have any references to hand just now to check.

[tony.t]

On 7/22/2020 at 5:54 PM, Duncan B said:

The initial RN order was actual placed in 1964 before the F-4J design was formalised and although it is fair to say the F-4K/M and F-4J are contemporaries the F-4Ks weren't just anglicised clones of the F-4J. Some design elements of the F-4K were actually incorporated into the F-4J design (rather than the other way around) such as the slotted stabilator which was added to the F-4J early in the production run and retro-fitted to earlier F-4Js that didn't initially have it. I think I am correct in saying that the nose leg extension was originally devised for the F-4K and then a single stage version was incorporated into the F-4J design.

 

Duncan B 

 

The inverted slot and fixed inboard wing LE flap was incorporated into the F-4B from around Block 26 or 28 IIRC and retrofitted to earlier aircraft. The F-4J had these from the beginning.

The F-4K/M were based on the F-4J, and used a derivative AWG-11/12 radar package, the M/FGR.2 having the Ferranti INS so a fuller rear cockpit.

 

I had late cockpit shots but passed them to Andreas Kline at AirDoc. To see an early FG.1 the best source (from memory) is an old copy of the Linewrights FG.1 book. 

 

Tony

[xvtonker]

PM sent

 

XVTonker 

[Scout712]

1 hour ago, xvtonker said:

PM sent

 

XVTonker 

To me? Haven't received it.

Best regards

Michael