Geoff Wellums' Spitfires Pt 2

[Peter Roberts]

After Geoffs' first Spitfire Mk I, K9998, QJ-K, was damaged in combat, he was given another Spitfire Mk I to fly. 

 

I believe this was coded QJ-G. I did have X4330 as its' serial number (no note as to where I got this!) but looking at the history of this plane it appears it never flew with 92 Sqn.

 

Does anyone have the serial for Wellums' second Spitfire Mk I, QJ-G?

 

TIA

 

PR

[85sqn]

Agreed, the latest Wingleader Spitfire MkI book has X4330 within, it served with 616 Sqn who shared the QJ codes. It was flown by Johnny Johnson however.

[Peter Roberts]

Aha! That may be why the confusion? Same Squadron codes. Great pick up, thank you. Explains why X4330 has been put up in the past perhaps.

[85sqn]

That's the issue with the 'TopNotch' masking set which has K9998 as K and X4330 as G. I blundered into doing G!

[Peter Roberts]

Ah! Nooooooo! Hopefully we can nail down a serial and you can change it (?)

 

PR

[Mark Harmsworth]

If you've got a date for this then there's a good chance the ORB's could tell you. 92 sqn seems to record serial nos. against pilots in 1940.

 

In June he is recorded as flying P9316. See here:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8455513

 

Mark

[mhaselden]

8 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

After Geoffs' first Spitfire Mk I, K9998, QJ-K, was damaged in combat, he was given another Spitfire Mk I to fly. 

 

I believe this was coded QJ-G. I did have X4330 as its' serial number (no note as to where I got this!) but looking at the history of this plane it appears it never flew with 92 Sqn.

 

Does anyone have the serial for Wellums' second Spitfire Mk I, QJ-G?

 

TIA

 

PR

 

Not sure the info about K9998 is correct.  Looking through the 92 Sqn F540 Appendices, there isn't a single K-serial recorded in the months of May or June 1940.  Wellum's first flight with the Sqn appears to have been in P9445 on the last day of May.  I think it highly improbable that K9998 wore QJ code letters given that 92 Sqn aircraft probably still wore GR codes as late as May 1940, as evidenced by the photo of GR-S with bullet holes in the tail in Wellum's book "First Light".  

[Peter Roberts]

Thanks guys - looks like time to hit the ORB.  

[85sqn]

Indeed, the National Archives seems to be having some online issues at the moment and it won't let me download them. Hopefully they can resolve it shortly.

[Peter Roberts]

Hmm, me too. Can't sign in!

 

Looks like only May, June, September, October and December Records of Events available for 92 Squadron.

[Mark Harmsworth]

3 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

Hmm, me too. Can't sign in!

This happens from time to time - high demand I guess.

 

3 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

Looks like only May, June, September, October and December Records of Events available for 92 Squadron.

That's a little unusual. Maybe they had other things on their minds. How the ORBs are completed does vary sqn by sqn. Some have both serials and codes which is great for research - but most don't have both.

 

However there is a lot of combat reports, which is not that common, see the 'Appendices September to November' document. Although there's 249 pages of them so someone would have to be very motivated to go through that lot! 

 

I'm interested in Geoffrey Wellum as well - I've just read his book 'First Light' which I thought was a great read.

 

Good luck with your search.

Mark

[mhaselden]

Ok...went through the 92 Sqn Appendices for May and June 1940.  Here are the details of Geoff Wellum's flights:

 

30 May – P9445

31 May – P9367

1 Jun – P9316

5 Jun – N3248

6 Jun – R6624, P9367

7 Jun – R6624

9 Jun – P9368

12 Jun – P9454, N3287

14 Jun – N3167

15 Jun – N3167

16 Jun – N3167

17 Jun – P9454

18 Jun – R6548

19 Jun – R6596

20 Jun – N3287, N3287

22 Jun – N3167

24 Jun – P9368, N3249

27 Jun – R9368

28 Jun – N3167

29 Jun – N3167

30 Jun – P9454

 

I'll take a look at the other records I have to see if any other details emerge.  

[85sqn]

This is fantastic, thank you very much.

[mhaselden]

Here are the records of Wellum's flights in July 1940.  Note that the list includes K9998 and a serial R9998 (as well as a couple of flights in L1080).  The flights with K9998 and L1080 all occurred while 92 Sqn was based at Pembrey/St.Athan, which was hardly in the front line.  This makes me wonder if these older airframes were simply to make up the numbers but wouldn't have been used in the front line (ie 11 Group)?  Anyhoo...here are the serials listed in the F540:

 

1 Jul – N3287

2 Jul – N3167

3 Jul – N3167

5 Jul – R9998

6 Jul – L1080, K9998 

7 Jul – L1080

14 Jul – K9998

17 Jul – P9368

20 Jul – R6597 (2 flights), P9513

21 Jul – R6624

22 Jul – R6624 (2 flights)

29 Jul – P9372

30 Jul – R6624

[mhaselden]

And the records for August 1940:

 

7 Aug – P9998 (probably a typo)

10 Aug – P9372

11 Aug – R6703

12 Aug – R6703

13 Aug – R6703 (3 flights)

14 Aug – R6703

15 Aug – R6703

23 Aug – P9513

25 Aug – R6760

26 Aug – X4051

28 Aug – R6624

29 Aug – R6624

30 Aug – X4051

31 Aug – X4051

[85sqn]

Thanks very much. It certainly shows that by no means was K9998 used very much by Wellum. Just 4 times so far. R6703 was used at least seven so far.

 

September 11th is the date when, in the book he comes up against 150 Luftwaffe bombers. It would be interesting to know which aircraft he was flying that day. 

 

I suspect that a lot of the paintings out there depicting Wellum in combat in K9998 are going to be complete artistic licence based on the information you've presented here!

[85sqn]

Further to information above about X4330, the Wikipedia page for John Fraser Drummond (mentioned in the book as having come from the Norwegian campaign) says he flew X4330 on 27 September and engaged an Me 110. That suggests it was on the squadron. What does the record say?

[mhaselden]

19 minutes ago, 85sqn said:

Thanks very much. It certainly shows that by no means was K9998 used very much by Wellum. Just 4 times so far. R6703 was used at least seven so far.

 

September 11th is the date when, in the book he comes up against 150 Luftwaffe bombers. It would be interesting to know which aircraft he was flying that day. 

 

I suspect that a lot of the paintings out there depicting Wellum in combat in K9998 are going to be complete artistic licence based on the information you've presented here!

 

Here are the records for September 1940.  No mention of K9998 but there are several flights in P9998:

 

1 Sep – 1077 (no letter provided – 3 flights)

3 Sep – X4037 (2 flights)

5 Sep – L1077

7 Sep – P9372

9 Sep – X4051 (2 flights)

11 Sep – R6760 (2 flights)

12 Sep – R6760

15 Sep – P9998

16 Sep – P9998 (2 flights)

17 Sep – P9998 (2 flights)

19 Sep – P9998

20 Sep – P9998

21 Sep – P9998

23 Sep – P9998 (3 flights)

24 Sep – P9998 (3 flights)

25 Sep – P9998, X4487

27 Sep – P9998

28 Sep – P9998, X4485

29 Sep – X4485

30 Sep – X4485 (2 flights)

[mhaselden]

17 minutes ago, 85sqn said:

Further to information above about X4330, the Wikipedia page for John Fraser Drummond (mentioned in the book as having come from the Norwegian campaign) says he flew X4330 on 27 September and engaged an Me 110. That suggests it was on the squadron. What does the record say?

 

The 540 lists Drummond flying X4487 twice on 27 Sep.  

[mhaselden]

I can find no record of X4330 being flown by any pilot on 92 Sqn in the period Aug/Sep 1940.  The main X-serials are X4037, X4038 and X4051.  

[Peter Roberts]

Those lists are fantastic, thank you! I still can't get on to the NA. 

 

From the lists, it does look like K9998 is a good candidate for QJ-K.

 

As pointed out above, P9998 looks to be a typo, and R9998 also would be a typo. Neither serial is in the production lists for Spitfires. I think it is reasonable to assume K9998 where these serials are listed.

 

There are no specific dates in First Light. Wellum does damage a Heinkel and is bounced by a 109 in the book; presumably this is 11 September when he was credited with a He111. He then moves on to returning with a badly damaged Spitfire that cannot be repaired on the Squadron - also in September? Perhaps 28 September? If so then K9998 looks like a very good candidate for QJ-K.

 

Could this also make X4485 his replacement aircraft, QJ-G? Lots of assumptions there, I know. Would be good to see October details.

 

Does anyone know if Geoffs logbook is still around?

[Peter Roberts]

Okay, finally managed to gain access to the NA and downloaded the 92 Sqn Record of Events for October 1940 (AIR 27 743/8) - except it's not. It's a Summary!

 

Cr*p

 

 

 

[Rafwaffe]

I've been trying to establish the identity of QJ-G as well (without much success)

For the record; 

 

December 1940 :

X4656 - 2 Dec , 3 Dec,5 Dec, 7 Dec,  (Crash-Landed), 10 Dec (Air Test)

X4418 - 2 Dec

X4779 - 21, 22 Dec

 

January 1941:

X4779 - 2 Jan, 3, Jan , 9 Jan, 10 Jan, 19 Jan (Twice)

 

March 1941:

R6761 - 19 Mar

R6890 - 13 Mar (Twice), 14 Mar, 24 Mar (Twice), 25 Mar, 27 Mar (Twice), 31 Mar  

R6908 - 30 Mar 

R7192 - 28 Mar 

X4062 - 13 Mar, 31 Mar 

X4279 - 18 Mar
X4342 - 19 Mar

X4779 - 1 Mar

 

April 1941 (Vb)

R7192 - 1 Apr
R6890 - 4 Apr, 7, Apr, 26, Apr, 27 Apr, and 30 Apr 
X4561 - 1 Apr
X4106 - 19 Apr , 21 Apr 
X4484 - 25  Apr (Twice), 26 Apr 

 

After reading the Jan, Mar and April 41 ORBs;

I'm leaning to X4779 as his last Mk Ia 'G' as this is the sole Serial he is recorded as flying between 21 Dec and 01 Mar 41 (less access to the Feb 41 ORB to confirm or deny this)

For the Vb 'G', I put forward that it may be R6890 from the records we have available to us.

 

this still does not resolve which spitfire post K9998 (Oct and Nov 1940) as X4779 is recorded as being issued to 92 Sqn on 05 Dec 40 (X4485 or 4656 maybe...) Would  be handy to have October, November 40,  Feb, May and June 1941 to refer to as well....Ah well can't

have everything I guess...

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Rafwaffe
Added Jan and March 1941

[Peter Roberts]

Mate, nice digging. Based on the lists you have come up with X4779 does feature a fair bit.

 

However, having re-read 'First Light', I'll put this forward. After 'K' was declared unrepairable by the Squadron, 'First Light' states he was told 'move your things into 'G' and be ready for a Patrol again later that morning which they fly at around half past ten. This Spitfire is described as a 'nice shiny new aeroplane'. 

 

IF that is correct, it fits very nicely with the details for 28 September, listed above, which would make X4485 his new Spitfire, QJ-G. Further, a check of Spitfire production shows that X4485 was delivered to 92 Squadron on 24 September. It would indeed have been a 'nice shiny new aeroplane'. 

 

Now there are the usual caveats around this. How good is Geoffs memory? Does he have the timelines correct for getting his 'new' Spitfire? How accurate is the ORB? etc etc Geoff also talks of flying a third op that afternoon, but the ORB indicates he only flew twice on the 28th. Could X4485 have been a fill in until he did get his new Spitfire? 

 

The October details would be very helpful here. However, the circumstantial stuff above does fit quite well. At the moment I'd plonk my money on X4485 being 'his' next Spitfire, QJ-G, but it wouldn't be the first wager I've lost.  

 

X4485 went on to suffer Cat 2 damage on Operations 5 November 1940. X4779 is listed as joining 92 Squadron on 5 December 1940, so may have become a later aircraft of Geoffs?

 

(Edited to include extra information from Spitfire production details)

Edited July 22, 2020 by Peter Roberts

[Rafwaffe]

On 7/23/2020 at 5:54 AM, Peter Roberts said:

Mate, nice digging. Based on the lists you have come up with X4779 does feature a fair bit.

 

However, having re-read 'First Light', I'll put this forward. After 'K' was declared unrepairable by the Squadron, 'First Light' states he was told 'move your things into 'G' and be ready for a Patrol again later that morning which they fly at around half past ten. This Spitfire is described as a 'nice shiny new aeroplane'. 

 

IF that is correct, it fits very nicely with the details for 28 September, listed above, which would make X4485 his new Spitfire, QJ-G. Further, a check of Spitfire production shows that X4485 was delivered to 92 Squadron on 24 September. It would indeed have been a 'nice shiny new aeroplane'. 

 

Now there are the usual caveats around this. How good is Geoffs memory? Does he have the timelines correct for getting his 'new' Spitfire? How accurate is the ORB? etc etc Geoff also talks of flying a third op that afternoon, but the ORB indicates he only flew twice on the 28th. Could X4485 have been a fill in until he did get his new Spitfire? 

 

The October details would be very helpful here. However, the circumstantial stuff above does fit quite well. At the moment I'd plonk my money on X4485 being 'his' next Spitfire, QJ-G, but it wouldn't be the first wager I've lost.  

 

X4485 went on to suffer Cat 2 damage on Operations 5 November 1940. X4779 is listed as joining 92 Squadron on 5 December 1940, so may have become a later aircraft of Geoffs?

 

(Edited to include extra information from Spitfire production details)

I like a good theory...

 

To take the thought further:

 

Mk I:

Spitfire Ia K9998 - Until 28 Sep 1940

Spitfire Ia X4485 - to 92 Sqn 24-9-1940 C2 ops 5-11-1940

Spitfire Ia X4656 - to 92 Sqn 10-11-1940 C2 ops 7-12-1940

Spitfire (Ia?) X4779 - to 92 Sqn 5-12-1940 to 53OTU 13-3-1941

 

Mk Vb:

Spitfire R6890 - to 92 Sqn 8-3-1941

 

Almost too neat/coincidental (although this assumes one for one replacement of the previous aircraft if it was 'G')

Makes you wonder. Although without hard evidence this is all circumstantial/conjecture....

Edited July 23, 2020 by Rafwaffe