Spitfire and Hurricane from September 15th 1940 BoB day

[Olmec Head]

I have been thinking about what I could build for this GB.  I just bought Dr Alfred Price’s book: Battle of Britain Day and I would like to do the Spitfire flown by Plt Off Peter Peace which is on the front of my copy of that book

 

 

Sadly, Plt Off Pearce died in action on that day, I don’t normally like to aircraft where the pilot died, (superstition I suppose) but this one seems appropriate.

I will use the always good Airfix 1/72 Spitfire having bought the last three from Newark Air Museum.  It will be XT-B x4324 from 603 Squadron.

 

I would also like to do another aircraft from the book, the Hurricane flown by Sgt Holmes when he cut a Dornier in half on the same day!  This will be TM -B P2725 of 504 Squadron and SGt Holmes survived the BoB and the war. 

 

 

 

(from tmb art metal website)

 

I just need to buy a 1/72 Hurricane.

[lasermonkey]

I can thoroughly recommend the Arma 1/72 Hurricane. Shape-wise it's probably the best of the bunch and it's better detailed as well. There are a few areas where the fit isn't great, but I think I have found a way round most of those now and I'm more than happy to share my findings if you go down the Arma route.

 

Good luck with your builds.

Mark.

[Olmec Head]

3 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

I can thoroughly recommend the Arma 1/72 Hurricane. Shape-wise it's probably the best of the bunch and it's better detailed as well. There are a few areas where the fit isn't great, but I think I have found a way round most of those now and I'm more than happy to share my findings if you go down the Arma route.

 

Good luck with your builds.

Mark.

Thanks Mark I ordered the cheaper (but not cheap) version from Hannants without all the etch.  I would be interested in where you had any problems please?

[Ralph]

Great choices. I have both of these in my cabinet, and particularly like Pease's Spitfire. He was a contemporary, and friend of, Richard Hilary on 603 sqn, and you can read more about him in Hilary's great book on the BoB 'The Last Enemy' if you're interested.

Look forward to seeing these progress.

Cheers, Ralph

[lasermonkey]

On 7/18/2020 at 8:23 PM, Olmec Head said:

Thanks Mark I ordered the cheaper (but not cheap) version from Hannants without all the etch.  I would be interested in where you had any problems please?

 

The first area that may cause trouble is the undercarriage bay assembly. While the two halves if the u/c bay sidewalls seem to fit into the upper wing part snugly, it can cause fit issues shortly down the line. I had issues on the first one I build but am currently building three more and found a fix by the time I got to the last two.

I have annotated the Arma instructions (It's the Expert version, so ignore the photo-etched parts) to hopefully explain clearly.

 

Arma say to join the two sidewall parts (20 and 21) before fitting to the upper wing. Firstly, cut off the two locating tabs that I marked A, as they are way too big to locate into their holes.

 

Rather than join parts 20 and 21 together, fit part 20 into its location on the upper wing first (without part 21) and allow the glue to set.

 

Next, fit the bracing parts 23 & 24 into their respective positions, making sure they are aligned horizontally.

 

Then attach the cylinder (22) to the front sidewall (21) and then fit to the upper wing/rear sidewall assembly. You may possibly need to file a very small amount off the protrusions on part 21 that butt against the bracing parts, but better to adjust part 21 than the braces, as you'll need all the clearance possible for the gear retraction jacks to pass through.

 

When I followed the instructions on my first Arma Hurricane, it resulted in the bracing parts (23 and 24) being around 1.5mm longer than the gap they were supposed to fit in. I think what happens is that if you follow the instructions, the sidewalls end up being smaller than the gap they fit into. Fitting the parts separately means they locate firmly against their recesses, leaving the correct spacing for bracing parts. If you dry-fit them, I think you'll understand what I'm getting at.

 

A good fit for parts 23 and 24 is vital for the next bit, which is attaching the gear legs after most of the main assembly has been done. Esteemed Britmodeller Procopius showed how it can be done here. It'll save you from breaking the gear legs off during the build.

 

The next bit concerns the wing-fuselage join. I found that it almost fitted, but wasn't quite clicking up into place. it took a little head scratching, but I finally realised that the thin strip of plastic either side of the cockpit floor, on the top of the wing assembly (indicated as B below) was slightly too high, preventing the wing assy. from pushing home. It's hard to show on the instructions and I may have to take a photo of the part itself to indicate exactly what  the problem area is, but it's actually a relatively small area and not a huge amount needs to be removed. I used a home-made 1mm "micro chisel" to carefully shave away a small amount and after a couple of goes, the wing clicked perfectly into place. It's so close to being a very good fit, but not necessarily obvious where it fouls. I'm sure I'll be making a point of this on my own BoB Groupbuild entries.

 

Of course, you may find that you don't have any fit issues whatsoever. I know that Procopius didn't, but a few others have. Apart from these few, minor issues, the kit is actually a joy to build and IMO looks far more like a Hurricane than any other kits in this scale.

 

By the way, if you ever decide to buy any more Arma Hurris, try Dave Coley's Emporium, as his prices for these are really good.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

Edited September 4, 2020 by lasermonkey
refreshed images.

[Olmec Head]

On 19/07/2020 at 00:35, lasermonkey said:

 

The first area that may cause trouble is the undercarriage bay assembly. While the two halves if the u/c bay sidewalls seem to fit into the upper wing part snugly, it can cause fit issues shortly down the line. I had issues on the first one I build but am currently building three more and found a fix by the time I got to the last two.

I have annotated the Arma instructions (It's the Expert version, so ignore the photo-etched parts) to hopefully explain clearly.

 

Arma say to join the two sidewall parts (20 and 21) before fitting to the upper wing. Firstly, cut off the two locating tabs that I marked A, as they are way too big to locate into their holes.

 

Rather than join parts 20 and 21 together, fit part 20 into its location on the upper wing first (without part 21) and allow the glue to set.

 

Next, fit the bracing parts 23 & 24 into their respective positions, making sure they are aligned horizontally.

 

Then attach the cylinder (22) to the front sidewall (21) and then fit to the upper wing/rear sidewall assembly. You may possibly need to file a very small amount off the protrusions on part 21 that butt against the bracing parts, but better to adjust part 21 than the braces, as you'll need all the clearance possible for the gear retraction jacks to pass through.

 

When I followed the instructions on my first Arma Hurricane, it resulted in the bracing parts (23 and 24) being around 1.5mm longer than the gap they were supposed to fit in. I think what happens is that if you follow the instructions, the sidewalls end up being smaller than the gap they fit into. Fitting the parts separately means they locate firmly against their recesses, leaving the correct spacing for bracing parts. If you dry-fit them, I think you'll understand what I'm getting at.

 

A good fit for parts 23 and 24 is vital for the next bit, which is attaching the gear legs after most of the main assembly has been done. Esteemed Britmodeller Procopius showed how it can be done here. It'll save you from breaking the gear legs off during the build.

 

The next bit concerns the wing-fuselage join. I found that it almost fitted, but wasn't quite clicking up into place. it took a little head scratching, but I finally realised that the thin strip of plastic either side of the cockpit floor, on the top of the wing assembly (indicated as B below) was slightly too high, preventing the wing assy. from pushing home. It's hard to show on the instructions and I may have to take a photo of the part itself to indicate exactly what  the problem area is, but it's actually a relatively small area and not a huge amount needs to be removed. I used a home-made 1mm "micro chisel" to carefully shave away a small amount and after a couple of goes, the wing clicked perfectly into place. It's so close to being a very good fit, but not necessarily obvious where it fouls. I'm sure I'll be making a point of this on my own BoB Groupbuild entries.

 

Of course, you may find that you don't have any fit issues whatsoever. I know that Procopius didn't, but a few others have. Apart from these few, minor issues, the kit is actually a joy to build and IMO looks far more like a Hurricane than any other kits in this scale.

 

By the way, if you ever decide to buy any more Arma Hurris, try Dave Coley's Emporium, as his prices for these are really good.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

Thanks Mark for the heads up, I am waiting for my Hurricane to be delivered from Hannants (they must be overjoyed at this group build for shifting their stocks of 1940 RAF and Luftwaffe kits, not forgetting the Regia Aerothingy).  I will be using your excellent instructions.  I noticed on another Arma build that the closed up canopy looked slightly large and overhung the fuselage sides.

[Olmec Head]

Whilst waiting for my Hurricane to arrive from Hannants, I have been putting green paint onto the interior of the Spitfire.  As this is not very exciting, I will spare you the details.  Oh and I will put Silver paint on the rear area after the seat frame, if anyone was concerned.  

[Olmec Head]

I have got the Arma Hurricane from Hannants a few days ago and some extra squadron codes as well.  I started on the undercarriage wells and then too late I remembered Lasermonkey's advice on fit sequence.  Prising the bits apart again, The wheel well went together now much better, so always follow other's advice!  The wing tops and bottoms needed some adjustment and I removed one lug to get a good fit.

 

As I had only stumped up for the Junior version, I didn't have to worry about fitting any fiddly PE in 1/72 scale.  That said I did find that the cockpit was slightly difficult to get right due to the tight tolerances, I had to snip one frame to get it to fit.  I becgan to worry that this would be the story of the kit, looks good but needs adjustment.  BUT, suddenly the fuselage went together virtually seamlessly and then fitted into the wings almost as a snap fit.  Any mistake was my fault...

 

 

The cockpit looks not bad and I used an old Airwaves Sutton harness set which surprised me, as it looks good in the photo...

 

 

I had done some extra detail work on one of the Spitfires with some Airwaves etch for the throttle and undercart levers, some simple extra plastic boxes and stretched sprue etc.  I used a resin seat, better resin joystick, resin gunsight and after market instrument panel.  I wasn't that impressed by the overall result and didn't get a decent photo.  I glued together the top nose join as this is a weakness for the Airfix spitfire.

 

 

I may do the second Spitfire as a 19 Squadron aircraft.

[Olmec Head]

As with most in Great Britain, I found the heat etc over the last few days not to be conducive to making little plastic planes as my wife calls them.  I was also somewhat disappointed by some Britmodeller uncivil responses to my request for details about the new Eduard Spitfire 1a which has mitigated against me wanting to post for a bit.  

 

I have now made some belated progress, in putting on some Halfords primer:

 

 

 

The gaps are obviously where I have had to do some more sanding and filling.

 

And with British tourists recreating the retreat to Dunkirk over the weekend (without the Stukas and john Mills) I now have sprayed the much debated Sky.  Having panic bought paint from several sources during lockdown, I thought that I would try one of each from Vallejo, Tamiya and Xtracrylic:

 

 

The left hand Spitfire is painted with Tamiya Sky, the right Spitfire is painted with Vallejo and the portly Hurricane is painted with Xtracrylic.

 

The two photos should show the variation,  The Xtracrylic has a stronger greener tint, the Tamiya has more colour intensity than the Vallejo which has a more 'washed out'  finish.  The Vallejo probably needs a second coat, but I wanted to see the results after one coat.  All sprayed well and the next stage is to mask the undersides and paint the Dark Earth.

[Cookenbacher]

Excellent progress OH, and interesting to see the different versions of Sky.

[Troy Smith]

On 17/07/2020 at 21:03, Olmec Head said:

I would also like to do another aircraft from the book, the Hurricane flown by Sgt Holmes when he cut a Dornier in half on the same day!  This will be TM -B P2725 of 504 Squadron and SGt Holmes survived the BoB and the war. 

 

BTW this profile looks cobblers....

 

First,  and this what it screams wrong...

504 Sq Hurricane

 

 

seems 504 Codes read B-TM on the port

and

 

which is unusual,   but as the code order was not specified,  one of those quirks.

P3774 is also one of the few P**** and V**** Hurricane that were built with fabric wings, and one of the even fewer (5 so far) we have a photo of....

 

HTH

T

[Olmec Head]

39 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

BTW this profile looks cobblers....

 

First,  and this what it screams wrong...

504 Sq Hurricane

 

 

seems 504 Codes read B-TM on the port

and

 

which is unusual,   but as the code order was not specified,  one of those quirks.

P3774 is also one of the few P**** and V**** Hurricane that were built with fabric wings, and one of the even fewer (5 so far) we have a photo of....

 

HTH

T

Thanks Troy I was going to ask if anyone had better information on 504 Squadron Hurricanes.  The steer on the fuselage coding is a good one and makes me wonder about the value of the original profile that I took off the net (from a watch company- I believe).  I presume that the propeller would have been a Rotol, not a De Havilland  and also is there any guidance on the camouflage scheme would have been A or B please?

[Troy Smith]

7 minutes ago, Olmec Head said:

I presume that the propeller would have been a Rotol, not a De Havilland 

AFAIK, yes, the blunt Rotol, as seen on P3774,  

7 minutes ago, Olmec Head said:

 

 and also is there any guidance on the camouflage scheme would have been A or B please?

The A/B bit causes confusion, as with breaks in the serial sequence, the accepted odd/even does not always follow.  

see

Block 1/G, First Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range P2535 - P2584 (50), P2614 - P2653 (40), P2672 - P2701 (30), P2713 - P2732 (20), P2751 - P2770 (20), P2792 - P2836 (45), P2854 - P2888 (35), P2900 - P2924 (25), P2946 - P2995 (50), P3020 - P3069 (50), P3080 - P3124 (45), P3140 - P3179 (40), P3200 - P3234 (35), P3250 - P3264 (15) - Total 500

 

note the even/even , and odd/odd  combinations, which unless the paint crew is paying attention, can lean to flips, 

  Look for similar serial, and see what pattern that is.  I can't off hand remember what the accepted A/B-odd/even is.(and need to eat so not about too look)

That can be the default if you can't get any close serial with a photo.  

 

I'll have a ponder and see what i can find, but you could always ask in the WW2 section  

 

 

[Olmec Head]

Just now, Troy Smith said:

AFAIK, yes, the blunt Rotol, as seen on P3774,  

The A/B bit causes confusion, as with breaks in the serial sequence, the accepted odd/even does not always follow.  

see

Block 1/G, First Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range P2535 - P2584 (50), P2614 - P2653 (40), P2672 - P2701 (30), P2713 - P2732 (20), P2751 - P2770 (20), P2792 - P2836 (45), P2854 - P2888 (35), P2900 - P2924 (25), P2946 - P2995 (50), P3020 - P3069 (50), P3080 - P3124 (45), P3140 - P3179 (40), P3200 - P3234 (35), P3250 - P3264 (15) - Total 500

 

note the even/even , and odd/odd  combinations, which unless the paint crew is paying attention, can lean to flips, 

  Look for similar serial, and see what pattern that is.  I can't off hand remember what the accepted A/B-odd/even is.(and need to eat so not about too look)

That can be the default if you can't get any close serial with a photo.  

 

I'll have a ponder and see what i can find, but you could always ask in the WW2 section  

 

 

Thanks Troy.

[Troy Smith]

http://bbm.org.uk/airmen/as-holmes.htm

 

 

Ray "Arty" Holmes in the cockpit of Hurricane P2725 TM-B at RAF Hendon, North London.

 

 

[Olmec Head]

13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

http://bbm.org.uk/airmen/as-holmes.htm

 

 

Ray "Arty" Holmes in the cockpit of Hurricane P2725 TM-B at RAF Hendon, North London.

 

 

Thanks again Troy, it is always useful to remember the people and reality behind the models.  The link to the story of Ray Holmes was very good and it must have been strange for him to have his hands on the joystick that he last saw  60 plus years ago.  

 

From the above cockpit photo, I think I will go with pattern A for the camouflage as there might be a corresponding demarcation line to indicate that scheme.

[Olmec Head]

With the British summer back to its temperate self and my modelling desk in the garage no longer being a sweat box; I have pressed on some more and sprayed the Dark Earth on the upper surfaces.  To make some changes, I put on a first coat of 'old-style' Vallejo Dark Earth 71.029.  This is darker than their later 71.323 BS Dark Earth and I thought would make a good base.  I then over sprayed the BS Dark Earth which hopefully lightened the colour up:

 

 

I have an ambiguous time with Vallejo, sometimes it paints effortlessly and other times it can splatter and clog if you don't clean the needle a bit during spraying.  It does go on very wet and thin (compared to Tamiya) and I have found using a hairdryer quickly dries the paint rather than waiting for it to dry normally.  This allowed me to put on a couple of layers quickly and stops dust sticking to the surface (it is a garage remember).  The bluetack cockpit blodges are because I will add the canopies later- I will try to use a Vac Form for the open cockpit for XT-B.

 

The Hurricane will be Pattern A and thanks to Troy for his post on 504 Sqn Hurricanes.  The Spitfires will be Pattern A (XT-B)  and Pattern B Schemes (QV-B).   I will probably use Tamiya RAF Dark Green.  My other alternative is Vallejo 324 BS Dark Green is too green to my eyes.  

Edited August 18, 2020 by Olmec Head
GPS

[Retired Bob]

On 17/08/2020 at 10:16, Olmec Head said:

 I was also somewhat disappointed by some Britmodeller uncivil responses to my request for details about the new Eduard Spitfire 1a which has mitigated against me wanting to post for a bit. 

That was my reaction to the uncivil responses as well, not helped by the number of "likes" that they received.  However, that is modern life and things must go on.  Back to the Eduard 1/48th Mk.Is, it would appear that others have agreed that Eduard cocked up by putting two sprues from the early version in the kit with no motored gear selector and a few other things that should be there for a mid 1940 Spitfire.  I'm building mine using spares from the 2018 Tamiya kit.

[Olmec Head]

On 18/08/2020 at 13:25, Retired Bob said:

That was my reaction to the uncivil responses as well, not helped by the number of "likes" that they received.  However, that is modern life and things must go on.  Back to the Eduard 1/48th Mk.Is, it would appear that others have agreed that Eduard cocked up by putting two sprues from the early version in the kit with no motored gear selector and a few other things that should be there for a mid 1940 Spitfire.  I'm building mine using spares from the 2018 Tamiya kit.

Yes the lack of the hydraulic selector has put me off buying the kit, I was considering it, but I already have the Tamiya and Airfix versions and I cannot really justify another 2 Spitfires until I have built at least one of those.  Particularly as it would have to be an early version, which I had slated for the Tamiya kit.  I'll probably wait until the cheaper Weekend version and build a closed cockpit!

[Olmec Head]

The British summer has now moved to its glorious best from the untenable 34 centigrade and humid nights akin to Borneo in the rainy season.  With the drizzle and grey skies all is back to normal.   So today, I have put on the mask patterns for the Spitfires and some carefully applied blutack for the Hurricane:

 

 

These were then over-sprayed with Tamiya RAF Green.  

 

 

I did do some pre-shading and post lightening, but the effects were too subtle and effectively lost.  That said the Spitfires were both virtually new machines in Squadron service on the 15 September and so there would have been no real weathering.  I am not sure about the Hurricane's service history prior to BoB Day.  In reality I don't think many BoB Aircraft would have had much chance for weathering in the Summer of 1940: I am always surprised about the shortness of many airframes' operational flying times before being sent for major servicing, being transferred to another squadron or being lost or cat-ed.

 

Then the big reveal with blutack and paper masks being removed:

 

 

 

The results weren't too bad and the bluetack (however it is really spelt) residue came off without marking the paint.  There is some minor touch up on the Sky to redo.  But the next big bit for me is to try to do the vacform canopies for the Spitfire or at least one of them.  I don't have much success with vacform canopies and I think I have two Pavla canopies to get it right.  

[franky boy]

Nice work so far and good to see some paint comparisons. I share your experiences with Vallejo and have lately stuck with Tamiya and Gunze paints for ease. 

 

I bought the Eduard kit which is a truly beautiful thing before realising about the undercarriage leaver issue. It’s not a problem for me as I plan to build some earlier aircraft but it is a funny oversite on their part. 

 

Loom on forward to more progress. 

 

James

[Retired Bob]

3 hours ago, franky boy said:

I bought the Eduard kit which is a truly beautiful thing before realising about the undercarriage leaver issue. It’s not a problem for me as I plan to build some earlier aircraft but it is a funny oversite on their part. 

Yes it is a strange omission, especially as they are using the kit basics to also make the Mk.II  and Mk.V.  I suppose in the end there will be all the bits in various boxings so that you can build just about any Spitfire.

[Cookenbacher]

That last post deserves three likes I'd say, one for each.

[Paulaero]

On 19/08/2020 at 15:31, Olmec Head said:

The British summer has now moved to its glorious best from the untenable 34 centigrade and humid nights akin to Borneo in the rainy season.  With the drizzle and grey skies all is back to normal.   So today, I have put on the mask patterns for the Spitfires and some carefully applied blutack for the Hurricane:

 

 

These were then over-sprayed with Tamiya RAF Green.  

 

 

I did do some pre-shading and post lightening, but the effects were too subtle and effectively lost.  That said the Spitfires were both virtually new machines in Squadron service on the 15 September and so there would have been no real weathering.  I am not sure about the Hurricane's service history prior to BoB Day.  In reality I don't think many BoB Aircraft would have had much chance for weathering in the Summer of 1940: I am always surprised about the shortness of many airframes' operational flying times before being sent for major servicing, being transferred to another squadron or being lost or cat-ed.

 

Then the big reveal with blutack and paper masks being removed:

 

 

 

The results weren't too bad and the bluetack (however it is really spelt) residue came off without marking the paint.  There is some minor touch up on the Sky to redo.  But the next big bit for me is to try to do the vacform canopies for the Spitfire or at least one of them.  I don't have much success with vacform canopies and I think I have two Pavla canopies to get it right.  

That's a Great image showing the differences between the type A and B camo patterns 

[lasermonkey]

On 19 August 2020 at 3:32 PM, franky boy said:

Nice work so far and good to see some paint comparisons. I share your experiences with Vallejo and have lately stuck with Tamiya and Gunze paints for ease. 

 

 

I tried Vallejo a few years ago and came to the conclusion that the force holding the paint onto the model was only slightly more than 9.8 m/s squared!