Stowage on tanks

[M3talpig]

17 hours ago, Sunna said:

I used to work in a large quarry where the plant machinery would get very harsh treatment. You would not see much rust at all on the trucks and excavators. We had several very old pieces of plant which would show rusting but how many Sherman or Tiger tanks would serve that long?

I would argue that whatever your chosen scale ...you inherit that scales limitations.......76th 35th 16th 1/6.....all options for realism grow with the scale...at some point though to get a good result artistic interpretation has to be a fact.....if we all built our models to strict borders of purely realistic then our models would by definition contain no art or interpretation......... essentially we would all be building exactly the same thing........it might not be realistic to add that rust to that 3 week old Sherman....but it sure makes it that much more interesting to look at though.

[Sunna]

4 hours ago, M3talpig said:

I would argue that whatever your chosen scale ...you inherit that scales limitations.......76th 35th 16th 1/6.....all options for realism grow with the scale...at some point though to get a good result artistic interpretation has to be a fact.....if we all built our models to strict borders of purely realistic then our models would by definition contain no art or interpretation......... essentially we would all be building exactly the same thing........it might not be realistic to add that rust to that 3 week old Sherman....but it sure makes it that much more interesting to look at though.

Yeah, I see your point mate, It's just that I prefer realism over fantasy. I would be just as guilty of wanting to practise techniques as the next guy but when I see a model that looks like it could be a photograph I am struck breathless.

[Jasper dog]

Hi, if I could chuck my tuppence in regarding stowage, the topic got the old grey cells going. 

A very quick cursory glance through the reference books at hand (I'm not going to try and photograph photographs because of copyright issues), these being; British Tanks in Normandy by Ludovic Fortin, 

Operation Goodwood, A Corridor of Death by Perry Moore, and the few pics in

Eighth Army in Italy by Richard Doherty

All show lots of allied tanks, Sherman's, Cromwells, Stuart's etc loaded with stowage whilst in the field. Ranging from a few Jerry cans, boxes and the odd tarp to piled with all sorts of guff, spare wheels, boxes, crates, tarps etc etc. So providing its tied or strapped down, dont forget some of the haversack type items have there own straps to attach to a suitable handle or rail, it's quite plausible, within reason. Some have tarpaulin covering the stowage but by no means all or for that matter most.

 

This is my understanding from what I've read on the subject; As for rust, armour plate or the armoured hull takes a long time to corrode,  a surface covering of oxidised material can form, after on while, on bare-metal but the weld bead won't, that can remain bright and shiney for years. What does rust and leave stains are the mild steel items these go fairly quickly and stain the armour beneath it.

When paint is chipped and scrapped off armour plate etc it doesn't tend to leave a bright shiney silver coloured bare metal streak or chip but a mutch duller metallic brown/grey colour (if down to bare metal). Apparently this does vary depending upon the technique used for creating armour plate, so Allied and German stuff could be different.

 

This is 75 yr old (approx) panzer iv, shiny weld and light surface corrosion to armour plate.

 

 

Matt paint fades and marks really quickly and easily too in my experience, so worn and faded paint is quite possible particularly in harsh environments. 

 

Saying all that, it's your model and if it make you happy who cares!

Personally I find a carefully weathered vehicle with a suitable array of stowage, in the right context, far more interesting than a factory fresh one but that's imo.

[Kingsman]

What he said........

 

Armour plate does take a long time to corrode as it contains many corrosion-inhibiting elements in the alloy. Nickel, molybdenum and/or manganese would be typical along with higher than normal carbon. Even higher carbon in the outer face in face-hardened plate.

 

For all practical purposes weld metal will never corrode.

 

Many external fittings and fixtures will be mild steel and will corrode, leading to rust streaking on the armour. This can be mistaken for the armour rusting. Fastenings such as bolts and rivets are possibly not armoured. Bolts could be but rivets cannot be as they need to be heated to be used, destroying any previous heat treatment.

[Smithy1961]

Veering slightly off topic, how was foliage attached around the vehicles? Secondly, any pointers to obtaining the right kind off stuff to replicate these branches etc? Bonsai trees are expensive, if you didn't already know that!

[spruecutter96]

A couple of related points folks might be interested in....

 

In both of the Gulf Wars, American tank-crews started off with loads of items hanging off the outside of their AFV's. After a while, it became obvious that anything flammable would often catch fire as a result of RPG strikes. As a result, the crews put as much equipment inside the tanks as was practical, leaving the non-flammable stowage in the open air. So, if your modelling your tanks in the later stages of the war, this could be worth considering.

 

During the invasion of Europe, British Sherman crews would often cover the floor of their tanks with layers of old telephone-directories (younger modellers might have to ask a relative what these were!). The thinking was that, if the tank hit a mine, the directories would form a small degree of extra protection. Like the Tesco adverts used to say "every little helps..." This was a bit of information I heard on an old episode of "Combat Dealers".

 

Chris. 

[Jasper dog]

8 hours ago, Smithy1961 said:

Veering slightly off topic, how was foliage attached around the vehicles? Secondly, any pointers to obtaining the right kind off stuff to replicate these branches etc? Bonsai trees are expensive, if you didn't already know that!

I've seen pics of German armour with thin wire attached to the vehicle to hold the foliage in situ and I'd guess the allies did something similar. As long as the foliage was secure for the job in hand I'd guess its whatever worked and came to hand. Wouldn't need to last long as foliage once cut dies and turns brown over a relatively short time.

 

As for making the branches, never tried but I'd have a go with suitable small twigs with some sort of foliage attached or make your own from multiple twists of wire and again some foliage. Possibly try model railway stuff for the foliage/greenery?

Or, if really into it you can buy punches to cut leaves and attach and paint those.

 

Good luck

Darryl 

[M3talpig]

On 07/08/2020 at 23:53, Das Abteilung said:

Armour plate does take a long time to corrode as it contains many corrosion-inhibiting elements in the alloy. Nickel, molybdenum and/or manganese would be typical along with higher than normal carbon. Even higher carbon in the outer face in face-hardened plate.

 

For all practical purposes weld metal will never corrode.

 

Many external fittings and fixtures will be mild steel and will corrode, leading to rust streaking on the armour. This can be mistaken for the armour rusting. Fastenings such as bolts and rivets are possibly not armoured. Bolts could be but rivets cannot be as they need to be heated to be used, destroying any previous heat treatment.

Also worth remembering that armour plate is welded together using stainless steel wire not normal steel as the cooling rates differ so much that normal steel welds will crack as they cool......that's why we don't rust weld beads.

[Ron NL-S]

11 hours ago, Smithy1961 said:

Veering slightly off topic, how was foliage attached around the vehicles? Secondly, any pointers to obtaining the right kind off stuff to replicate these branches etc? Bonsai trees are expensive, if you didn't already know that!

German armor often had loops welded to the exterior, precisely for that purpose.

Between those they would tie wire or maybe even rope, behind which they could stick foliage or whatever they deemed appropriate.
I have not seen photos of allied armor doing that, but the Germans apparently had a much greater use for such, due to Allied air superiority, I suppose.

[Black Knight]

This a late WW2 T34-85

Loops on the hull, on both sides and some on the engine cover

 

On the rear of the turret