Halifax bomb loadout.

[HP42]

Hi all, quick question. I'm putting together a diorama with a 76 Sqn Mk2 Tollerton-nose Halifax preparing to go on the Peenemunde raid. What was the likely bomb load? I'm using the Airfix bomber resupply set. The cookies are out, the Halifax couldn't carry them. I guess they didn't bother with incendiaries as they wouldn't have been suitable. That leaves me the 1,000lb and 500lb bombs. On that basis, what combination and total load would have been likely? Thoughts, best guesses?

[Graham Boak]

The Halifax could carry the 4000lb.  A normal Halifax payload would be 8000lb, probably 8x1000lb, but this would of course be reduced for longer-range missions, or altered by the carriage of fire bombs.  Note that the bombs were carried three abreast, so some modification of the Revell kit's bombbay is necessary.  Basically by opening up the outer doors (a convenient groove is provided) and changing the mounting of the inner doors to being slightly further outboard.  I've done it, it isn't difficult.

 

I don't know how far it was to Peenemunde.    I'd suggest a 3;2;3 or 2;2;2 installation.

[HP42]

5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The Halifax could carry the 4000lb.  A normal Halifax payload would be 8000lb, probably 8x1000lb, but this would of course be reduced for longer-range missions, or altered by the carriage of fire bombs.  Note that the bombs were carried three abreast, so some modification of the Revell kit's bombbay is necessary.  Basically by opening up the outer doors (a convenient groove is provided) and changing the mounting of the inner doors to being slightly further outboard.  I've done it, it isn't difficult.

 

I don't know how far it was to Peenemunde.    I'd suggest a 3;2;3 or 2;2;2 installation.

Ooh that's interesting, thanks for that. Peenamunde is about as far away as Berlin, so I guess it could have been just 6,000lb? The set has 6 x 1,000lb bombs, so that works nicely. I'm going to have them on the trolley with the tractor, so that works out nicely and there's no need to muck about with the bomb bay as the aircraft is already built and finished. 

 

Just been looking at Peenamunde on Google Earth, you can still see the bomb craters even now, 

[tonyot]

Have you thought of checking out the squadrons ORB for the date of the raid? These generally list the bomb load and load out of every aircraft sent on the raid. They can be bought online as a downloadable file from the NRO at Kew,... for between £3-5.   

Here is a link;

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2503298

 

Cheers

            Tony

 

EDIT,....If the ORB covering Aug 1943 is not available,..... just check another 4 Group Halifax unit.

Edited July 14, 2020 by tonyot

[Graham Boak]

Given that we are talking about fairly tired Mk.IIs, I think that we can rule out 8000lb over that range.  The Halifax File from Air Britain does give some idea of payload-range variations, but for a new aircraft.  I think I'd be inclined to use 4x1000lb  and some fire bomb clusters - the personnel were every bit as much a target as the harder elements on the site, if not more so.  But Tony's advice is good.

[HP42]

Thanks guys. The ORB looks like a fascinating resource. I'll have a delve. I've been listening to a talking book that covers the raid (Lancaster by John Nichol), and it discusses the main target being the scientists in the housing estate. Whilst it didn't mention the bomb loads I am wondering if incendiaries would have been particularly useful in such low density housing? Sure it would set a house fire and de-home them, but the likelihood of it killing the occupants who could escape, probably wouldn't be great. I guess the intention was to kill them in the explosive blast? The housing was targeted first to prevent them running to shelters and a spoof raid on Berlin was laid on to suggest that was the target -mostly to draw away the fighters, which it initially did.  That ORB might give me a better indication hopefully.  My original post contained a typo, it was 77 Sqn based at Elvington. Right, let's see if I can find something interesting in the records...🙂

[EwenS]

An old thread on BM that Graham contributed to.

 

 

[Dervish]

National Archive digital downloads are free whilst it’s closed to visitors. You just need to create an account.

[Graham Boak]

There is a CD-ROM on the Halifax Mk.III showing standardised bomb loads, but from memory it doesn't have any information on the associated ranges.

[AWFK10]

I recently downloaded the 77 Sqn ORB and I can confirm that it specifies the bomb load for every aircraft participating in the Peenemunde raid:

 

Aircraft A, D, G, H, K, L, Q, R, Y, Z, M, N: 1 x 2000 lb HC inst,  1 x 1000 lb HC inst, 6 x 500 lb HC inst.

Aircraft B: 1 x 2000 lb HC, 1 x 1000 lb HC, 6 x 500 lb GP.

Aircraft J: 1 x 2000 lb inst fusing, 1 x 1000 lb inst fusing, 6 x 500 lb inst fusing.

Aircraft T: 1 x 2000 lb HE, 1 x 1000 lb HC, 6 x 500 lb GP.

Aircraft V: 1 x 2000 lb HC, 1 x 1000 lb GP, 5 x 500 lb GP.

Aircraft C, O, P, U, X: 50 x 30 lb ord incends, 720 x 4 lb ord incends.

 

Ten aircraft also carried "Nickels", which if I recall correctly were propaganda leaflets, "all dropped in the target area". The ORB gives the serial number for each of these aircraft: you'll need to check that the one you decide to model was a B II Series 1 (Special) as some are likely to be have been Series 1a or possibly B Vs.

[HP42]

43 minutes ago, AWFK10 said:

I recently downloaded the 77 Sqn ORB and I can confirm that it specifies the bomb load for every aircraft participating in the Peenemunde raid:

 

Aircraft A, D, G, H, K, L, Q, R, Y, Z, M, N: 1 x 2000 lb HC inst,  1 x 1000 lb HC inst, 6 x 500 lb HC inst.

Aircraft B: 1 x 2000 lb HC, 1 x 1000 lb HC, 6 x 500 lb GP.

Aircraft J: 1 x 2000 lb inst fusing, 1 x 1000 lb inst fusing, 6 x 500 lb inst fusing.

Aircraft T: 1 x 2000 lb HE, 1 x 1000 lb HC, 6 x 500 lb GP.

Aircraft V: 1 x 2000 lb HC, 1 x 1000 lb GP, 5 x 500 lb GP.

Aircraft C, O, P, U, X: 50 x 30 lb ord incends, 720 x 4 lb ord incends.

 

Ten aircraft also carried "Nickels", which if I recall correctly were propaganda leaflets, "all dropped in the target area". The ORB gives the serial number for each of these aircraft: you'll need to check that the one you decide to model was a B II Series 1 (Special) as some are likely to be have been Series 1a or possibly B Vs.

Brilliant!!!! That's what I wanted. I need 'G' so it's 1 x 2000 lb HC inst,  1 x 1000 lb HC inst, 6 x 500 lb HC inst. That's 6,000lb in total, not huge. Now where do I get a 2,000lb from? 🤔

 

Interesting that some did carry incendiaries. I guess they thought they'd burn what was left?

 

I couldn't find 77Sqn ORB 16/17th August 1943 in the archives. It only goes up to June. I've been mooching about in there and getting lost. Loads of stuff...🧐

[HP42]

2am and I've been mooching about on the National Archives. What an easy way to spend an evening. Now found the 77 Sqn stuff I was after, the website is a bit clumsy but I got there. I've pieced so much together and it's now solved so many little mysteries. I've been cross referencing a Navigator's logbook with the records and building a better picture of his experience. 

 

Found a 2,000lb HC bomb now, coming from Poland. 😃

 

Thanks everyone for all the really fabulous contributions. 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

To move from the specific to the more general for the night.

 

Peenemunde raid 17/18 August 1943, Three aiming points, scientists' and workers' living quarters, the rocket factory and the experimental station, the pathfinders shifting between the aiming points during the raid.  Bombs dropped,

 

Pathfinders,
Halifax, 21 attacking, 7x1000 GP, 11x1000 MC, 81x500 MC, 552x40 pound High Explosive, 60x250 pound target indicator
Lancaster, 70 attacking, 67x4000 HC, 122x1000 MC, 195x500 MC, 1416x40 pound High Explosive, 162x250 pound target indicator, 216 flares

Main Force,

Stirling, 50 attacking, 10x2000 HC, 31x1000 GP, 17x1000 MC, 9x500 GP, 45x500 MC pound High Explosive, 984x30, 480x4 "X", 14,100x4 pound incendiary
Halifax, 189 attacking, 115x2000 HC, 17x1000 GP, 149x1000 MC, 38x500 GP, 894x500 MC High Explosive, 2226x30, 510x4 "X", 28,170x4 pound incendiary
Lancaster, 251 attacking, 166x4000 HC, 8x4000 MC, 610x1000 GP, 591x1000 MC, 69x500 GP, 324x500 MC pound High Explosive, 6084x30, 780x4 "X", 38,280x4 pound incendiary

 

1 Lancaster attacked Sylt, 1x4000 HC, 6x1000 GP, 2x500 GP pound High Explosive
1 Lancaster attacked Sylt airfield, 1x4000 HC, 2x1000 GP, 2x1000 MC pound High Explosive
1 Halifax attacked "other target", 56x30, 720x4 pound incendiary

3 Lancasters each made 2 attacks, the primary covered above, the secondaries dropping a total of 3x500 MC and 24x40 pound High Explosive

 

The Mosquito raid on Berlin, 8 attacking, dropped 24x500 MC and 8x250 pound high explosive.

 

As can be seen above while there is a typical/average load there was plenty of variation.

 

The campaign summaries list the Halifax as dropping one 8,000 pound and 467x4,000 pound bombs.  Wellingtons 1,931x4,000 pound bombs

[HP42]

Interesting data there, quite fascinating. Quite a few things strike me: The number and type of aircraft used as pathfinders. I assumed they would have been Mosquitos to mark the area, but it was a sizeable force. The number of incendiaries was notable, though clearly they wanted to burn what was left. Could the Halifax really take anything bigger than a 2,000lb bomb? Surely not? Likewise the Wellington? 

 

I'm also amazed by the report that only 2 scientists were killed. You'd have thought anyone in the vicinity would have been blasted to bits in that pit of hell. Clearly not, I assume the population had good shelters and used them? Must have been utterly terrifying. 

[dogsbody]

The Wellington could carry a 4,000lb. Cookie, but it needed a modified bomb bay.

 

 

 

The Halifax could also carry a cookie but the bomb doors wouldn't quite close.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[brewerjerry]

2 hours ago, HP42 said:

 

 

I'm also amazed by the report that only 2 scientists were killed. You'd have thought anyone in the vicinity would have been blasted to bits in that pit of hell. Clearly not, I assume the population had good shelters and used them? Must have been utterly terrifying. 

Hi 

    from wiki  

 

The British lost 215 aircrew, 40 bombers

(  23 Lancasters, 15 Halifaxes, 2 Stirlings )

and killed several hundred enslaved workers in the nearby Trassenheide labour camp. The Luftwaffe lost twelve night-fighters and about 170 German civilians were killed, including two V-2 rocket scientists

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Hydra_(1943)

 

[Blimpyboy]

6 hours ago, HP42 said:

I'm also amazed by the report that only 2 scientists were killed. You'd have thought anyone in the vicinity would have been blasted to bits in that pit of hell. Clearly not, I assume the population had good shelters and used them? Must have been utterly terrifying. 

 

The failure to achieve two of the three principal objectives - destroying the labs and assembly halls, and killing the expertise - is largely due to misplaced target markers and obscuration of the target area (quite literally the 'fog' of war).

The initial pathfinding markers were off target and this, compounded with two bombing techniques being used between groups (either bombing the markers or using a dead-reckoning-based technique) was the main cause of the aiming point(s) being spread throughout the site. Enemy obscurants, and smoke/haze from initial waves led to further accuracy issues, despite the Master Bomber's efforts.

 

These issues - and the subsequent effects - are pretty much emblematic of the whole WWII heavy bombing (in)effectiveness debate. The hardware and rapidly-evolving techniques used at the time were just not up to the task being demanded of those performing them.

 

The chief issue, as I see it, is that the Allies did not truly understand the objectives and status of the Germans' missile development programmes, nor the Germans' resilience and ability to get back up to speed so rapidly. In this regard, little was done (as a result of the Peenemunde raid) to effectively nobble the Germans' missile capabilities overall.

From here: https://media.defense.gov/2010/Sep/28/2001329804/-1/-1/0/AFD-100928-063.pdf

"Both Peenemünde and Watten were Allied tactical successes but strategic failures. The Peenemünde raid did heavy damage to installations and killed some key personnel, but it alerted the Germans to the fact that the Allies considered the V-weapon program a serious threat. German commanders promptly relocated production facilities elsewhere."

 

Sadly, most of those killed were the forced labourers housed in the target area.

C'est la guerre, I suppose.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The pathfinder force was typical for raids that July/August.  Bomber Command had a nominal 3 squadrons of Mosquitoes (2 and a half operational) but that translated to 36 serviceable aircraft with operational crews on 17 August 1943.  5 Group, in the last wave, used what they called the "Time and Distance" method as an alternative to the pathfinders.

 

It would be good to find what the definition of scientist and civilian are in the various casualty reports, there were the civilians living in the area plus lots of families of workers and a number of high skill engineers, drafts/trades people and so on working on bleeding edge equipment, including guidance systems, not necessarily counted as scientists.  The number of casualties, and material damage, from bombings were extremely variable, warnings that were heeded and good shelters were the usual best defence.  The incendiary watches that most bombed locations learnt to employ were people out looking for and making safe incendiary bombs to prevent fires taking hold, showing how "safe" being out in a raid was, they certainly took casualties, usually small versus the number of people involved.  There are stories of personnel at Peenemunde running into burning buildings to save important items.

Most human settlements have military significance, the cross roads, the river crossing, on the high ground, the rail station, the siding and so on, even just the buildings themselves.  The many small and medium sized ones rarely had shelters or warning systems, casualties per ton of bombs dropped on them tended to be at the higher end.

The casualties in the labour camp are a warning about ideas of bombing such camps, it was a fraction of the bombing done early in the raid due to mismarking.

 

Using the W.R. Chorley books, Bomber Command Losses, Peenemunde Raid

 

244 Killed, 45 PoW, 1 injured, 20 safe (plus any casualties in damaged aircraft).  The injured and safe were from 3 Halifaxes, one crashed on take off, one on landing and one was written off as the result of a night fighter attack.

 

Counting the above 3 Halifaxes a total of 43 aircraft lost, 10 Halifax II, 8 Halifax V, 4 Lancaster I, 3 Lancaster II, 16 Lancaster III, 2 Stirling III.

 

Luftwaffe night fighter losses reported as 12, 3 were lost to 141 Squadron Serrate equipped Beaufighters and returning bomber gunners claimed 5 kills.  Earlier in the night a 10/NGJ1 nightfighter mistook a returning Do217M for a Wellington and shot it down.  Apart from that the nightfighters claimed 42 kills, 3 were disallowed, 18 have been matched or probably matched to RAF losses in Nachtjagd War Diaries and most losses were definitely due to nightfighters.

 

For completeness, 1 Mosquito lost on Berlin raid, 2 crew killed (nightfighter kill), 1 Mosquito crashed on landing from the raid, crew injured and 1 Special Duties Halifax II was lost over L'Aigle France, 7 crew killed.

 

German preliminary raid report, using it and looking at Peenemude using online maps can give you an idea of the area hit by bombs.

 

PEENEMUENDE, 8a 1151 - Min of Pub, Inf. & Prop, E. 1679 - Chief, Orpo., Transl. of German doc. - AD1K Report 2521/45, 17/18 AUGUST.  The alarm lasted from 2311 hours until 0340 hours over a wide area and there were 300 penetrations, of which 10 paid a visit to Berlin.

 

Bombs dropped: 1000 H.E. (60 duds or D.A.), an untold number of incendiary and phosphorous bombs and drums.

 

Casualties: 6 - 800 dead, 300 injured and about 9000 were rendered homeless.

 

Several hutted camps and settlements in Kaarlshagen were destroyed and about 20 houses destroyed and nearly all others damaged in Trassenheide.  Karlshagen is reported as being 90% and Trassenheide 30% destroyed.  The road to Peenemuende was severely damaged.  One industrial complex at Karlshagen was damaged and the development works in Peenemuende 80% destroyed.  The A.4 assembly plant and the power station and oxygen plant as well as the administrative building and drawing office of the East Plant were destroyed.  Light and water supplies, telephone and works railway were put out of action.  The greater loss was not so much in the destruction of buildings as in the loss of material and accommodation for the staff.

 

[EwenS]

5 hours ago, HP42 said:

Interesting data there, quite fascinating. Quite a few things strike me: The number and type of aircraft used as pathfinders. I assumed they would have been Mosquitos to mark the area, but it was a sizeable force. 

The RAF Pathfinder Force was formed in Aug 1942 by taking 1 squadron from each bomber group then in existence along with whatever equipment they had at the time. These were

1 Group - 156 sqn with Wellingtons

2 Group - 109 sqn Wellingtons and Mosquitoes (involved in developing bombing aids such as Oboe)

3 Group - 7 sqn Stirling

4 Group - 35 sqn Halifax

5 Group - 83 sqn Lancaster

 

It became 8 (Pathfinder Force) Group in Jan 1943 and developed from there with 2 more heavy squadrons being added in April and 2 Mosquito squadrons in June 1943. It is not until November that year that that the first of an additional 8 Mosquito bomber squadrons begin to form and join the Group and 1944 before the Light Night Striking Force starts Mosquito only bombing raids on Germany. 3 squadrons were later transferred to 5 Group as a special marking force dedicated to that Group’s operations.

 

For the Peenemunde operation the only Pathfinder Mosquitoes involved, from 139 squadron, were used in diversionary raids. Peenemunde was beyond the range of the Oboe blind bombing system then used by the other two Mosquito squadrons.