Royal Scots Greys - Normandy - Sherman IIs and Firefly VCs

[NG899]

Hi,

 

Looking for some information about the tanks the 4th Armoured Brigade's Royal Scots Greys used after landing in Normandy on 7 June. Most references mention Sherman IIs and Firefly VCs, which 1/35th scale kits are the best for those, are there any aftermarket decals which would help and what are the must have aftermarket items to improve the kit? Any build articles in magazines would also be welcomed. Thank you.

 

I've searched Hannants' site and Star decals cover the Greys' Sherman IIIs in Italy but nothing for Normandy. All photo references/books would also be welcomed - again www searches show their tanks in Italy but very few in Normandy.

 

All help and advice gratefully received.

 

Many thanks

 

Nick

Edited July 13, 2020 by NG899

[Kingsman]

The best Firefly now is a toss-up between the older Asuka kit and the newer RFM. Having recently built both my vote goes to the RFM.

 

As for M4A1 Sherman II, I suspect the best vote goes to Asuka followed by Dragon. But no-one kits a British version OOB with British pattern stowage boxes, track link holders etc. In many Dragon kits you get extra bits and you might find some of these in the box. Otherwise you're looking at after market parts.

 

Regarding markings, the appropriate divisional, AOS and tac sign markings are all available from the likes of Archer, Echelon or even Accurate Armour.  I noticed that there are some on Ebay now.  But you would really need photo references to be sure of unit practice on placement etc.

[AntPhillips]

One of the best references I've found on British Armour is the aptly titled "British Tanks in Normandy" by Ludovic Fortin, it comes up on EvilBay occasionally, but prices can vary immensely, its a detailed account of the Normandy campaign fought by British Armoured Divisions and Independent Armoured Brigades, from the D-Day landings through to Operation Goodwood.

 

I've got a copy at home, I'll check it to see what info there is on the RSG in Normandy.

[JackG]

I've the Fortin book as well, but will let Ant divulge the details for the Greys profile drawing.

 

Compared to the Flames of War gaming site, the only difference is they have the formation sign jerboa facing inwards:

https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=6634

 

 

Sister regiment  3 CLY:

 

Came across this photo near end of war, claiming to be from the Greys.  It at least provides a WD number and squadron tactical marking:

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by JackG

[JackG]

Concerning the AoS marking, there does appear to be some varying opinion to the background colours.  Certain photos apparently indicate two horizontal colours, but opinion varies whether it was green/blue or blue/brown - the latter typical of independent armoured brigade. 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=144885#p144885

 

There is also a fact that in late October, the AoS number series was switched to 51.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=877594#p877594

 

 

regards,

Jack

[NG899]

Thank you for all your help so far gentlemen. Ant, I'm looking forward to what you may be able to find in the book when you make it home, the RSG's drawing sounds helpful. Of course the Asuka/Tasca M4A1 is not available on their website. Does anyone know of any UK distributors? Thanks once more, best wishes.

 

Nick

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by NG899

[Retired Bob]

9 minutes ago, NG899 said:

Of course the Asuka/Tasca M4A1 is not available on their website. Does anyone know of any UK distributors? 

Getting hold of Asuka/Tasca kits has always been a problem, I have a few that I obtained from ebay.  The only time the M4A1 was more easily available was when Eduard released a boxing using the Asuka/Tasca plastic a fair few years ago, but only with US Army markings. 

[Kingsman]

I've seen them on Ebay recently, both Asuka and Eduard boxings. There were a couple of different Asuka versions IIRC, like the one with the Culin prongs.

 

I don't believe there's much wrong with the Dragon M4A1s. Again, several choices.

 

Did RSG only have Sherman IIs? 75mm Sherman production had ended by early 1944 and keeping units equipped with single engine types became increasingly difficult in NWE, although remanufactured tanks were arriving until about Sept 44.  Britain generally treated Sherman I, I Hybrid and II as interchangeable as they were mechanically identical. It is therefore surprising that they had VC Fireflies rather than ICs, either welded or composite hull, because of the mechanical incompatibility. Are you sure they were VC and not IC?  Sherman III-equipped units had VCs as there were no IIICs.

 

Direct Vision M4, A1, A2 and A4 were more widespread in NWE than many people imagine. Some were survivors but many DV tanks were remanufactured and Baldwin built all their 1,200 or so M4s with DV. Under the drivers hood applique it can be hard to tell.

[Retired Bob]

On 13/07/2020 at 14:04, JackG said:

Came across this photo near end of war, claiming to be from the Greys.  It at least provides a WD number and squadron tactical marking:

Not wanting to re-produce the photos, I think these Shermans are ready to be shipped to France in June 1944 looking at the loading numbers and waterproofing, the thing that I notice is the smooth appearance of the applique armour on the leading tank, compared to the patch on the knocked out Sherman of how it normally looks.

[NG899]

@ Das Abteilung - the info I have on the RSG's is very limited and comes from what I have found on websites, including images of Dan Taylor's 3CLY Sherman model and one of the RSG's Fireflies - a Vc? provided below - and at, e.g. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Scots_Greys 

https://www.warlinks.com/armour/4th_armoured/chapter_5.php

http://www.desertrats.org.uk/bde/4thABorg.htm 

http://www.desertrats.org.uk/orgarmour.htm#RSG

http://www.desertrats.org.uk/bde/4thAB1944.htm - mentions...

 

"The Brigade was were re-equipped with new Shermans, unfortunately not diesel ones, and it got their first 17 Pounder Sherman Firefly tanks. These were mostly the original Wright Whirlwind engined model, and each regiment was equipped with having twelve 17 Pounder tanks for the first time, which was enough for one for each troop. During this time 3rd CLY formed an additional 'D' Squadron on 9th March 1944.

 

On 3rd June 1944, the Brigade received its orders to move to the marshalling areas in preparation for the Normandy Invasion and 3rd CLY move to the Marshalling Area some 8 miles to the North of Portsmouth, while 44th RTR moved from Worthing to Portsmouth, on 4th June. Meanwhile, 4th RHA,  under the command of I Corps, at this time, had boarded their landing ships on 5th June at Tilbury docks."

 

From this, any clarification you can provide on Sherman types is welcomed, especially for the Firefly in photo below.

If you had to make an RSG Sherman which kit would you use, Tasca/Asuka or Dragon?

 

@ Bob - from this your thoughts on the above photo are probably correct, the likely location being Navarion Road, West Worthing from here:

http://www.desertrats.org.uk/assoc/locationmaps/4th_armoured_brigade.htm#4AB 

 

Thanks once more, Nick

 

 

 

 

 

[Retired Bob]

13 minutes ago, NG899 said:

From this, any clarification you can provide on Sherman types is welcomed, especially for the Firefly in photo below.

Hi Nick, with a welded front end and a Wright Whirlwind engine that would make it a Firefly 1C, converted from a Sherman M4, not the hybrid version as that had a cast front end.  This limits your kit choice to Dragon.  Tasca/Asuca never made a basic M4 for some reason.  Tamiya made an early M4 but it has a lot of problems to correct, the Tamiya Firefly VC is the Tasca plastic.  The Dragon Firefly 1C is not in production at present, It's not a kit that I have, I built my Firefly 1C from the Dragon M4 Normandy kit (75mm) with a resin Firefly turret and metal 17 pdr gun barrel.

[NG899]

Thanks Bob. Whose resin and metal parts did you use? It would be good to see a photo of your Firefly 1C! 

[Kingsman]

Yes a welded 1C would be a PITA to do. You would need the Dragon M4 as a base. DO NOT be tempted to the Tamiya M4 Early as it has many flaws including an A4 glacis that cannot be easily corrected. Drivers' hoods are completely wrong.

 

As it happens I have a spare resin radio box, probably a couple of plastic ones, a couple of plastic turret stowage boxes and a metal 17pdr barrel spare if you're interested. I can probably find a hull MG plug too, and a turret hatch (you'll need to make the hinge and surround). PM me if interested.

 

However, the description does not rule out the 1C Hybrid as it just describes the engine configuration. A lot of Hybrids were converted to Fireflies as they were late production, supplied new, had the M34A1 mantlet, Oilgear power traverse and a factory loader's hatch. Most M4s arriving in early 1944 would have been Hybrids as Chrysler was about the last producer of the 75mm M4 and the Hybrid/Composite hull was to be the new standard until Fisher came up with the ballistically superior and simpler to make 56 degree flat glacis. A lot of the M4s we already had in service would not have had the right mantlet or traverse gear for Firefly conversion.

 

The newer Dragon 1C is OK. The old one not so much. Asuka is undoubtedly better. I don't like the profile of Dragon's late cast glacis on any of their kits: too bulged between the hatch protrusions.

[Retired Bob]

34 minutes ago, NG899 said:

Thanks Bob. Whose resin and metal parts did you use? It would be good to see a photo of your Firefly 1C! 

Hi Nick, I got my Firefly 1C out of my must finish box, it's actually got the turret from the Dragon Firefly 1C hybrid Sherman kit, barrel is from RB, radio box is a spare from a Tasca kit, it is pictured on the afore mentioned Ludovic Fortin book : British Tanks in Normandy. and how I intend to finish it......just need the 1/35 scale socks! to drape over the barrel.

 

[Retired Bob]

Nick, as can be seen on this photo posted earlier, it is of a Firefly 1C hybrid, the cast front end with its weld is clearly shown, so if the photo description is correct then @Das Abteilung reasoning to which type of Firefly you need is confirmed.  In fact the Asuka kit of the Firefly 1C composite hull has decal markings for the Royal Scots Greys.

[EwenS]

Looking back into Mark Hayward's Firefly book it seems 4th Armd Brigade had 36 Firefly Vc on hand, being 12 per Regt. That from the Army Group reports as here

http://www.niehorster.org/017_britain/44-06-06_Neptune/Land/z_tanks_44-06-22_21AG.html

 

The next available figures are for 1945 firstly as part of 11th Armoured Div until March 1945 then again as an independent Armoured Brigade. Throughout the period to June 1945 it had a mix of Firefly Ic and Vc. By this time the Brigade had over 70 on hand with the numbers of each model varying. Jan it was 45/35 Ic to Vc. Then until the end of March the ratio was 1 to 2 Ic / Vc. From April it changed to 2 to 1 Ic / Vc. Ic would include Hybrids.

[NG899]

Thanks everyone. Managed to track down an Asuka Sherman, in Frome - big thanks to Bob for that link. I've pitched in for the Asuka Firefly 1C from Frome Model Centre too, as they had one. Depending on whether I now need it - answers quickly please! - I may call them tomorrow to cancel it.

 

The BIG question now is how to find a Dragon M4 Normandy kit... Hen's have more teeth it seems and the £151 being asked on a certain south American river is taking the Michael out for a long walk indeed. Web trawling has drawn a big blank.

 

@ Das Abteilung - very interested in the spares you have to offer, I'll drop you a PM tomorrow, need to go and get dinner cooked just now!

 

Best wishes to one and all.

 

Nick

 

(This is my first foray into armour since 1983 when I finished a Tamiya 88mm and half-track combo... I've still got it somewhere! So, please be patient with me!)

Edited July 15, 2020 by NG899

[Retired Bob]

1 hour ago, NG899 said:

Thanks everyone. Managed to track down an Asuka Sherman, in Frome - big thanks to Bob for that link. I've pitched in for the Asuka Firefly 1C from Frome Model Centre too, as they had one. Depending on whether I now need it - answers quickly please! - I may call them tomorrow to cancel it.

Nick, I would stick with the Asuka Firefly 1C hybrid, it has decals for the Greys and there are a couple of photos that show the Greys used this type of Firefly but I cannot find photo proof of either the earlier 1C or a VC Firefly with the Greys, the 4th Brigade had them on strength but were they with the Greys?

[JackG]

Ant appears to gone awol with the info from the Fortin book unless he pm you? 

 

  Since it might help pull the trigger on the Asuka kit, the colour profile has some similarities - these being a red triangle tactical marking (but with a white 3), AoS is 122 over red background.   Differences are he has it identified as a Ic Hybrid, rear markings reversed, and a WD number T-263243.

 

regards,

Jack

[NG899]

Thank you Jack. Photo would be helpful, if you can work the oracle. Fingers knotted.

 

Nick

[JackG]

Unfortunately I've not found any photos to support the above described profile as illustrated in Fortin's book. 

 

Just had a look at the working pdf file on British tank names, and there is one  Ic Firefly named PRIORITY   in Germany1945.  Also a variety of Sherman types too if interested:

http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/tables/Vehicle_Names_V4.pdf

 

regards,

Jack

[John Tapsell]

"The Brigade was were re-equipped with new Shermans, unfortunately not diesel ones, and it got their first 17 Pounder Sherman Firefly tanks. These were mostly the original Wright Whirlwind engined model, and each regiment was equipped with having twelve 17 Pounder tanks for the first time, which was enough for one for each troop. During this time 3rd CLY formed an additional 'D' Squadron on 9th March 1944."

 

I would be wary of this description. It refers to March 1944. They were certainly re-equipping at that time but can't have been issued with any Sherman Ic at that point because none were available. Initially, all Fireflies were of the Vc variety and the Ic did not start to appear with units until some time after D-Day. Over time therefore, a regiment which started with the Vc would gradually change to a mixed or largely Ic operator, both because of attrition and because Fireflies were issued in larger numbers as the war progressed (some regiments were able to field two Fireflies per troop by 1945).

The description is almost certainly taken from the regiment's official history. Most such histories were written after the war and relied very much on memory and war diaries which were themselves of extremely variable quality. Having studied a number of official histories and regimental war diaries myself over the years, they are generally good from a narrative history viewpoint but a lot less reliable on technical matters. I've seen some war diaries that religiously record the arrival and departure of every 'A' and 'B' vehicle in the their charge, whilst others never make a reference to vehicles of any type.

 

John
 

[NG899]

Thank you Jack and John. I have a feeling this project is going to be one where the end results are more a case of "Prove me wrong" rather than "Here's the proof I'm right"!

 

Cheers

 

Nick