dogsbody Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: Joshing aside, the worst that will happen is you'll need some paint stripper. Hmmm! Stripper. Wha! Sorry! My mind drifted off there for a bit. Chris 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookenbacher Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Wow, this is looking incredible Bill, so much detail. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 1602 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Cockpit is looking smashing Bill. It’s turned into a displayable model in its own right! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 16, 2020 Author Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) Thank you everyone, most kind... In the light of recent information (Troy's post, above) I repainted the little canvas pocket I thought it was leather for some reason) and touched up the emergency door catch to properly represent it on my model. I also re-painted the control column so the silver goes all the way up to the grip itself... I had the whole of the top section after the hinge part in black because I wasn't paying attention to what photos I was using as a reference. Now that i can see how the catch works, next time I build a Hurricane, I will make sure it looks like it should and everything is in the right place. I obviously couldn't change anything on the model, as it was too late, but I have changed it enough to look more 'accurate' when anyone cares to look inside... This better represents the colour as it is in daylight now, rather than my rather harsh medical lamp, although it seems to have exaggerated the 'speckle' on the silver on the fuselage sides. I dont know why Airfix have that weird texture on the inner surfaces... it isnt great... I would far rather the ultra smooth plastic found on Eduard and Tamiya kits. I glued the wings on, too. They were a real pain. I got them to fit without having to cut anything away or sand anything off, but I can now see why a few people complained about the fit on this kit. Its good... but doesn't take into account any tolerance and the engineering isnt really good enough to support this level of detail. My wing spar was in the groove moulded to locate it, but the locating groove is considerable wider than the thickness of the wing spar, so if you are over towards one side of the tolerance, when you go to fit the wings, they dont 'sit' properly. I had to de-bond the wing spar over one wing and then re-glue it, still in the 'groove' but pulled over a bit more. Now it all fits... but this isnt acceptable. Anyone building this with slightly less experience would have ended up filing or cutting a load off the wing spar or had a huge gap to fill along the wing leading edge because the cause of this problem isnt all that obvious. I will be glad when I can get back to my Eduard Spitfires! Edited July 16, 2020 by Bill Livingston 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonT Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I have fallen foul to this exact issue on mine, still not sure which way to go to remediate it. My fault though I should have done more test fit’s before applying Tamiya thin. I still think it’s a great kit. I bought another for my Roald Dahl build which if the planets align I’ll do for the MTO GB. Pleased you noticed the problem before it was too late though! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 17, 2020 Author Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) OK... A fairly long session this evening trying to get everything to fit properly, which, for me anyway, was a bit of a pain. I try as much as possible to not use filler, which means very slow construction and gluing things in small sections and holding them still until the glue cures, making sure everything is as accurate and as well aligned as I can. I managed to get the wings together as I described last night. The wing spar is essential to get right otherwise you have issues with the fuselage to wing fit as well as the wing uppers to the lower half. Airfix really should make that a more positive location... but that would require a lot more moulding and tooling accuracy, which would probably make it a lot more expensive. It seems that the design is pretty good, but the tooling isn't quite up to it because of the tolerances that have to be built in... anyway, I will show the detail of the fit later for those who follow. Hopefully it will be useful as I can imagine a fair few people will build the Airfix Hurricane in this group build and if I, and others also building it, can help those that follow with some of the things to pay attention to, then great... OK... before I put the fuselage together I needed to complete the instrument panel. I decided to use the Eduard PE set to add some detail to the cockpit and I have to say, it is absolutely money well spent. It adds a huge amount of finesse to the kit without costing a fortune in either money or effort. Certainly recommended. The basic Eduard instrument panel is made up of three separate pieces that you simply stack. I used gloss varnish to glue them together and the added more in the instrument dials at the end to simulate the glass. It looks fine and the occasional flash as you turn it shows it is quite effective. Unlike the Spitfire instrument panels I used on my previous builds is, for some reason, devoid of any colour... It looks very effective, but a bit dull as built. And after... with a touch of pencil colour. I added some colour with red, blue and yellow Prismacolour pencils and finished off with a dot of gloss red paint on whatever that button is on the left. The red pencil suggests the red placard writing around the top of the button, so looks effective. The dials have gloss in them, but I didn't think to get a reflection when I took the photo! I think its a big improvement for only a few minutes work with a pencil or two... The yellow is clear, but the red, blue and green are pretty muted and they dont show in this picture... which is probably a good thing, if they were obvious I would have put too much colour on... I was aiming for a panel that didnt look monochrome but certainly not garish and obviously coloured and I think I have managed it. OK... a quick look at the wings... I haven't filled or added any Surfacer yet... this is just aligned and fitted as best I can. There is a paint line all the way along the seam which I oozed out a bit when I added the Tamiya Thin and squeezed the edges together... After a quick sand and polish, I cant feel an edge or a lip, but I have been caught out with this before, so I will reserve judgment until after I have airbrushed a line of primer along the seam... Certainly will need a bit of filler in this section. That looks like a moulding gate broke as I was cutting it off the sprue... so watch that if you are building this kit. The plastic feels soft, so you don't imagine it to be brittle, but it seems to be both! A touch or filler, probably high viscosity superglue, will sort this out... and then a bit of a re-scribe to keep the leading edge panels uniform. Having got the wings together reasonably (with the above caveats) I moved on to the fuselage. You have to be careful... you cant just trim the moulding gates off and expect it to glue together without a noticeable seam. I can imagine that of you don't take care at this stage, you will need filler on all the upper seams... You will see what I mean in the next picture... This is the main fuselage taped together as tightly as I could manage and photographed against a light from the underneath. As you can see, there is a huge gap all along the join, mostly due to the locating pins being too long and the locating holes for them being far from flat. Basically, it fits where it touches. And it doesn't touch very often! In the end, I cut them all off. Sometimes its worth sanding the fuselage halves on a sheet of thick glass with some fine sanding film glued to it so you get perfectly mated surfaces... but I didnt have any glass (my 'flat plate' has disappeared somewhere in a house move years ago) and besides, there is a gentle twist and warp in the fuselage sides, making sanding the surfaces flat a really dangerous thing to do... you end up with a perfect seam and a twisted fuselage! Anyway... This is it glued after removing all the mounting pins and cutting back the holes they were supposed to fit into... and then glueing it very slowly from the nose backwards, making sure I rotated it so I could pay attention to the upper surface and make it line up, not just along the seam, but on the top as well (not all plastic is the same thickness it seems...). Anyway, It looks pretty good and the seam is as good as I can get without resorting to corrective action like filling and sanding. Once that had more or less set, I then mated it to the wing to see what issues I would have to deal with there. There was a couple of things I needed to do first. One was to add the bulkhead in the nose. I had read somewhere that it isnt seen and doesn't add anything to the structural integrity. I disagree with the latter. The fuselage plastic is quite flexible and handling the model during the rest of the construction, starting with snapping the fuselage into the wing root puts considerable strain on that upper seam... I would definitely recommend fitting the bulkhead. However, whoever it was who wrote about it said that to caused an issue with getting the wing to fit properly as it fouled the front of the cockpit assembly. I seem to remember someone else saying they needed to cut some of it back (cant remember whether they said the cockpit framing/wing spar, or the bulkhead itself). Bottom line is, you need to look at it and work out what is going on... If you look at that front edge of the cockpit/wing root assembly you will see the front surface of the wing spar and the top of the cockpit framing that is glued to it (the face of the wing spar has that big ejector pin mark) You can see that same ejector pin mark in the picture above and the bulkhead fits (very, very) slightly in front of the wing spar. The important part is, if you are careful, it doesn't foul the bulkhead. The trouble is, there is quite a lot of 'wriggle room' in the spar position as I have mentioned earlier... so if the wing fits perfectly, it doesn't mean you have got away with it. You could have the wing spar a fraction too far forward and then you will need to file some of the bulkhead off, otherwise the fuselage won't sit flush with the wing roots and you will end up with a big step (and loads of filler in a very awkward place!). I seem to have got this about right (although I am slightly annoyed that one or other of the part isnt quite horizontal, there is a slight angle there, so I still wasn't perfect. However, I won't beat myself up about it as everything now fits... This is the starboard wing root at the leading edge. As you can see, it lines up pretty well, so no filler needed and the fiddling around was time well spent (fiddling around always takes less time than filling and sanding...) and it means you can get a better paint finish and all the other advantages spending time on the construction gives you. This is the port leading edge wing root. Again, it lines up (The step is because there is another part, the lower cowling panel, which needs to be fitted, but I will do that AFTER the wings are glued on to the fuselage so I bend the fuselage to fit the wing from the inside and get rid of any step. The trailing edge root is another matter... it looks like there is a little step there. Its the same on the other side.It is very small, so it won't be an issue and it is well away from some of the moulded detail such as catches and so on... so a quick wipe will make that go away. In the end, I am quite pleased. No filler on any of the major joins so far and it is looking quite neat... if a bit fiddly. I ran some Contacts Professional along the upper seam and then let it stand vertically for a while while it cured. That way everything should be fairly solid and stay in place... I like Tamiya Ultra Thin... but I dont always trust it for big, long seams... so I use it for assembly and then supplement it with either superglue or Contacta to add some strength on larger seams if I can get access from the rear (I would never use a heavy glue from a side you can see... ever... I would only use Tamiya Thin for that). Anyway, I have got this down to two parts now... so I will leave it so I am fresh when I actually glue the two parts together tomorrow. I dont trust myself when I am tired... Still, I had to have a play... Surprisingly, you can see quite a lot of the cockpit in a Hurricane, so I am pleased I made a bit of an effort to get it to look reasonable - well, different from a Spitfire cockpit anyway... which it does..! The seat looks pretty good, too. I still find the texture on the Airfix interior annoying, but the lighting and the close up photo exaggerate it a fair bit. To the naked eye it looks really good... And from the other side. Its not perfect, but it will do... and thats the thing with the Airfix kit... there are some really annoying things about it, but with a bit of care, it actually works really well and is certainly buildable... and from all accounts, its pretty accurate too. I wouldn't know... but if looks like a Hurricane when its finished, I'll be very happy with it. Anyway, thats enough from me for this evening... I'll catch up on everyone else threads now and then get some food (damn... is that the time!?). I hope the photos and my comments help anyone with the wing and fuselage construction if and when they come to build this kit... and of there is anyone out there who has already built this Airfix Hurricane and there are some things they think they should warn me about, now would be a good time! 🙂 Goodnight all... Bill Edited July 17, 2020 by Bill Livingston 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Wow! Your wing root area looks a lot like my 1/72 kit's. I also had a similar issue with the fit of the wing to the fuselage nose. I sanded down the edge for both wing and fuselage until they fit ok. Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 17, 2020 Author Share Posted July 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, dogsbody said: Your wing root area looks a lot like my 1/72 kit's A little... I will see what it looks like once it is all glued in place. I was thinking of adding something between the wing halves to lift it up a fraction. It only needs to be about half a millimetre and I should be able to get rid of the step, but I will see. I need a clear head to think that all through. They are quite nice kits, aren't they... but they do need some care... What did you do in the end, did you have to fill it a bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 In 1/72, I just used a bit of Mr Surfacer 1000 dribbled in with a sewing needle with the eye cut off. It works great for superglue, too. Chris 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 I have been adjusting and then gluing and then making further adjustments again and getting the to start to fit together reasonably well... I shouldn't need to do it though... which is why I am finding this Airfix Hurricane so frustrating. There are some aspects of this kit which are just superb... but there are other areas where it really isnt all that great. The plastic surfaces are pretty awful... there is a mild texture on the outer surfaces, but most a pebble like finish (well, 'orange peel' - maybe I was exaggerating a touch) on the interior surfaces, which I find annoying. Getting everything to line up is perfectly possible... although it has to be said it would be far easier to build this will lots of filler and sanded off surface detail and a few misalignments than it is to try to emulate a Tamiya or Eduard level of finesse and fit. Is it worth the effort? Yes, probably, because we are not exactly spoilt with accurate and detailed 1/48 scale Hurricanes at the moment (although Eduard have hinted that one may be around in a year or so...). 'm not going to post any real 'in progress' sets today, despite the fact I was sure I would have everything together and have primed it by now. At the moment it is currently in clamps, still in two major sub assemblies as the superglue I use as a filler on the upper/lower wing seam is curing, as are the sink marks on the tailplane fillets... The sink marks are really disappointing and how this is acceptable in this day and age is beyond me. That's not 'part of the fun of modelling'... thats just bad quality control and manufacturing. Yes... they really are that bad... look... There is another sink mark on the other side virtually as bad... (and you can see the 'orange peel' of the plastic surface in this picture, too.... Thats not dust, thats what the plastic looks like!). Both have been filled and then will be sanded (and primed to check everything is OK) while the main components are still apart as it easier to get access and maintain all the original shapes. Same with the sink marks on the wing roots at the front, which, while not as bad, are frustratingIy obvious on such a thick wing root/fuselage join. (I'm amazed that only a few people have pointed this issues out). I have managed to get to the point where there are no gaps in the wing root proper to fuselage join, so thats good... although I have since found that the panels are actually curved from the fuselage side and onto the wing from about half way back, so I shouldn't have a sharp 90 degree demarkation there anyway. A tiny little bit of filler on that section is needed to be accurate... Anyway... here is where I am now. I thought I was about to post the same picture as last time... but it isn't, this time it is the wings that are being held vertical while to glue/filler cures! Once this has all settled down and been checked I will put the wings and fuselage together and finish off the main components prior to priming. I had missed out the priming coat on my Eduard MKVIII as I have managed to get the whole thing together with no filling at all... Thats not going to be the case here, not least because of the texture in the plastic itself. I had thought about adding rivet detail and so on, but it appears Airfix started to and then abandoned the idea... There is a few around the tailplane panels... and a few on the wing...one line on the wing tips on the upper wing and one set at the rear of the wing fuselage joint on the underside. Strange... You would think they would either add the detail or decide not to... (That another good view of the 'orange peel' surface of the plastic, too...). 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsairfoxfouruncle Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 9 minutes ago, Bill Livingston said: That's not 'part of the fun of modelling'... thats just bad quality control and manufacturing. Yes... they really are that bad... look... There is another sink mark on the other side virtually as bad... (and you can see the 'orange peel' of the plastic surface in this picture, too.... Thats not dust, thats what the plastic looks like!). Ouch ... Ive seen more than a few of these go together in my three+ years here on the Forum Bill. I hate to say it but I think you got a 2nd shift Friday night kit, this isn't even close to what I've seen the other airfix hurricane kits look like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 How odd. My 1/72 kit had divots in the same places. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 Well, I managed to get the wings fitted... with no gaps along the wing root and everything level... same along the other wing root. I even managed to get the wing trailing edge to line up... The tiniest amount of filler will be needed, and only on the edge of the join, not either the upper or lower surface, but I couldn't adjust it any more... thats as good as I could get it without filler. I will have to try and reduce the trailing edge as it is very thick... but thinning it while the wings were separate would just have left a big step, so that wasn't really an option. These things come at a cost though, the leading edge of the wing where it fits into the fuselage leave a big lip. Gievn that the wing root is fine all along its length, but there is still a step between the front of the wing and fuselage join. If I reduced the lip at the front, the entire wing root would have a step. In the end I decided it was far easier to blend in the compound curve under the nose/wing join than fill the wing root, I think it was the best compromise. The rather soft edges prevent a really fine join there anyway, even if it all lined up, as the lower wing and the edge of the fuselage nose has really soft edges anyway... so it would never have been a clean butt joint, there would always be a little dip where the sections met. Sanding it all down and describing the panel lines is a much easier option and I negate all the fit problems at the same time. As you can see, it is quite severe... However, it should be completely flush with a very fine panel line... which is actually very easy to do. Here is a contemporary photo showing what this join should actually look like... its actually a much simpler series of joins than the kit seems to suggest... It will actually be very easy to fill that front section and then sand it down to this... and all those catches are flush, so it is fine to sand them off and replace them with a circular scriber pressed in to the plastic and then a tiny hole partially drilled in to the centre of each one. Even the little opening on this side of the nose is flat... no ring/bulge round it as there is on the kit... just a plain hole with some rivets round it. I'm quite pleased where I have got to on this, fit wise, although it was a bit of a struggle. And I pleased I kept up with my wanting to get parts to fit with no filler if at all possible... although maybe it is a little bit of wishful thinking when dealing with a rather softly moulded Airfix kit. Thanks for reading... Bill 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) I had a quick go at a rough sanding just before I went off to bed... and then photographed it low and at 3/4 view to show how it works. Seems fine. I will sand it smoother tomorrow after work... that was 400 grit... but I will go up to 2500 to get it clean enough for painting. Still no filler🙂 Thats not too bad. A polish and a rescribe and it will be fine. I can also replace the fasteners and drill out the holes properly. Its actually feeling pretty solid now and it looks like its in one piece... I'm going to take off all the fasteners around the nose. They should be flush and sharply defined... they look very prominent and much too soft on the kit... I'm pleased with the fit though... the underside of the nose now looks right and the wing root is as close to perfect as I can get... so not a bad evenings work. Right... off to bed... its 2.50 in the morning and I have work tomorrow! Edited July 20, 2020 by Bill Livingston 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Dapple Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 That's very tidy work Bill Cheers, Stew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Those holes on the lower sides are for the starter cranks. Don't forget to drill out the hole one the underside of the nose, just back from the prop. The hole is to access a plug in the crankcase behind which one can see the timing marks on the crankshaft. Essential for adjusting the magnetos. Chris 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Coming along nicely Bill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 Thank you, Stew, Chris and Ozzy... And particular thanks for the pictures and explanation Chris, those will be very helpful. Not been able to do anything this evening... the real world got in the way, but I will pick this up tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 On 19/07/2020 at 18:32, Bill Livingston said: I had thought about adding rivet detail and so on, but it appears Airfix started to and then abandoned the idea... There is a few around the tailplane panels... and a few on the wing...one line on the wing tips on the upper wing and one set at the rear of the wing fuselage joint on the underside. Strange... You would think they would either add the detail or decide not to... Hi Bill the reason for the 'rivets' is they are more prominent screw heads and on the tail, they hold the fillets in place 21 hours ago, Bill Livingston said: I even managed to get the wing trailing edge to line up... The tiniest amount of filler will be needed, and only on the edge of the join, not either the upper or lower surface, but I couldn't adjust it any more... thats as good as I could get it without filler. I will have to try and reduce the trailing edge as it is very thick... but thinning it while the wings were separate would just have left a big step, so that wasn't really an option. Weird thing is, the managed to mould fine trailing edges on the elevators, Re, under the nose also, worth chamfering the edge of the UC well and the radiator intake lip I was wondering the the cutout with the black bits were a Sea Hurricane modification, seems not One interesting detail, not relevant, the UC doors overlap the well sides by 3/4 of an inch. Pic will enlarge, and shows the apertures Chris mentioned well. from http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/hurricane_mk1_l1592/ fabric winged, but the centre section is the same also, back of the radiator, HTH 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted July 25, 2020 Author Share Posted July 25, 2020 I have been away for a few days as work got in the way again, so I haven't done very much this week. However, this evening I managed to drill out the indicated openings from Troys post and then deal with the navigation and landing lights... (Thank you Troy, again, that was a very useful post). I still have some tidying up and polishing prior to painting, but it was an easy re-stat after a few days of distractions. I drilled a short hole in the navigation light from the rear and then filled the holes with clear red and clear green. I then sprayed the back of the landing lights with Vallejo chrome to simulate the reflector. I then wound some thin black coated wire round a small cylindrical punch which happened to be the same diameter as the lights provided and added that to the outside of the front of the lights. Three small partial spirals were then put in place and held with gloss varnish. I then filled the front of the lights with gloss varnish and have let that set. It will take a while to fully harden, but once that has done - hopefully overnight - I can then trim the edges and set them into the mounting in the wing. (I should have done this before closing the wings... but I missed that and now will possibly have a little bit of a fiddly job... but nothing thats insurmountable). I then added the wing tip navigation lights and then sanded and polished them on place... 1000, 2500 and then 8000 grit foam polishing pads made short wok of them... I'll use the same for the landing light glass when thats ready tomorrow. Tomorrow I should be able to fit the remaining two lights, sand and polish them to conform cleaning with the wing and then complete the rest of the airframe assembly. Thats pretty straightforward I would think... although I suppose that depends on how well the tailplane fits to the fillets... I had already sanded the fillets after filling the sink holes... so hopefully they didnt change in shape or taper too much! 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stew Dapple Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 That's some lovely detail work on the lights Bill Cheers, Stew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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