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Black Knight

How (NOT) to lift a Stirling

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To put it bluntly, absolutely no expense should be spared to recover the remains of the fallen. They have paid the ultimate sacrifice and every effort should be made to ensure complete recovery of remains and personal effects no matter the cost. That said, I'm not a big fan of the way the media report things these days and can't help but think that there is a little bit of sensationalism creeping into that report. Hopefully, sensible heads will prevail and the right method will be utilised in the end.

 

Mark.

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yeah...

Quote

Almere city council said it had not yet announced the recovery method.

And seeing as this is normally done not by your average nitwit & involves our MoD, much ado about nothing.

 

Outrage headlines attract clicks. Seems to become more and more the reporting standard these days...

 

 

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On further thinking, I find the insinuation that the Dutch authorities and Defense organisation would NOT handle the recovery of wrecks (possibly containing remains) appropriately rather insulting, to say the least.

 

Let's state the obvious here:
Recovery of wrecks from the WW2 period means a good chance of munitions are present > Explosive disposal unit (EOD) of the Army is the only certified party allowed.

Remains of aircrew > War grave, therefore the utmost care is taken, again involving certified organisations  - Joint Army/Air Force BID (Recovery and Identification Services).

 

I'm of a mind to send a strongly worded letter to the editor (with an addendum for Mr. Brooks of Ashford, Kent).

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22 minutes ago, junglierating said:

Got that earworm of a tune in my head Mr Lime 🤪

Soz!

8 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

I'm of a mind to send a strongly worded letter to the editor (with an addendum for Mr. Brooks of Ashford, Kent).

Shame there doesn't appear to be an actual name of the writer of that article shown, but there is a generic email listed towards the bottom of it, eastofenglandnews@bbc.co.uk.

 

Mark.

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I'm in regular contact with the RNLAF Major who is leading the recovery and indeed have been this week.

 

I remain hopeful that this was just on a list of proposals put forward for recovery methods; BK716 was due to be recovered in the week we all went into lock down and the method of recovery was going to be by Coffer Dam, so assuming that the plan is still extant there should be no reason why this still shouldn't take place as planned.

 

No date yet though for when this will happen

 

take care

 

John

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The level of journalism by the BBC has spiralled to levels below the tabloids these days,...... and maybe even below the Daily Star,... personally I object to having to pay for such rubbish.

That aside,...... does anybody know the condition of this wreck,..... I know that it was shot down,..... but are there substantial sections or is it scattered wreckage littering the sea bed? 

Whatever the case,.... I do hope that the brave men who flew this Stirling are recovered and given a decent burial,...... the very least they deserve.

 

Cheers

           Tony

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3 hours ago, 12jaguar said:

 just on a list of proposals put forward for recovery methods

Considering the comment is mostly hearsay, allegedly from a city council person not directly involved, Mr. Brooks should know better based on his previous experiences.


 

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4 hours ago, tonyot said:

The level of journalism by the BBC has spiralled to levels below the tabloids these days,...... and maybe even below the Daily Star,... personally I object to having to pay for such rubbish.

That aside,...... does anybody know the condition of this wreck,..... I know that it was shot down,..... but are there substantial sections or is it scattered wreckage littering the sea bed? 

Whatever the case,.... I do hope that the brave men who flew this Stirling are recovered and given a decent burial,...... the very least they deserve.

 

Cheers

           Tony

Hi Tony

 

the aircraft is broken up but the parts that have been recovered thus far have been in good condition due to the freshwater and anerobic conditions of the mud they're buried in. In reality the water is omly about 6 feet deep.

 

We have the de-icer pump mount and landing light pneumatic control valve from BK716 incorporated into our flightdeck build. The Fort Veldhuis Museum team have loaned us items in the past that we have been able to measure

 

John

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Outrage headlines attract clicks. Seems to become more and more the reporting standard these days...

Yup, plain old lazy journalism.

 

As an old prof once said to me: “half a job is less work”.

Edited by Blimpyboy

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46 minutes ago, 12jaguar said:

Hi Tony

 

the aircraft is broken up but the parts that have been recovered thus far have been in good condition due to the freshwater and anerobic conditions of the mud they're buried in. In reality the water is omly about 6 feet deep.

 

We have the de-icer pump mount and landing light pneumatic control valve from BK716 incorporated into our flightdeck build. The Fort Veldhuis Museum team have loaned us items in the past that we have been able to measure

 

John

Thanks John,....... so we are talking components rather than major sections are we? I read that the gunner had been found in his turret,...... I`m presuming this is simply the emains of the turret area? I do hope that the majority of the remains can be recovered and re buried OK. 

Cheers

           Tony 

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Unfortunately it's pretty well broken up; we had the complete (damaged) throttle box on loan which had been ripped from its mounting and we had the lower LH part of the 1st pilots seat chassis and remains of the seat rail so the impact was pretty violent

 

John

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How was the aircraft brought down in the first place?

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On 7/14/2020 at 10:53 PM, Blimpyboy said:

Yup, plain old lazy journalism.

 

As an old prof once said to me: “half a job is less work”.

I believe the first rule of journalism is :

"Never let actual facts get in the way of a good story".

This sort of tabloid trash style reporting is sadly typical of the BBC nowadays. I ripped up and binned my TV licence 6 years ago so, at least they don't get my hard earned any more! 😂

Allan

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1 hour ago, Albeback52 said:

I ripped up and binned my TV licence 6 years ago so

Now you're a fugitive from justice...

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On 7/15/2020 at 9:33 AM, Blimpyboy said:

How was the aircraft brought down in the first place?

According to Aircrew Remembered, the aircraft loss was not claimed by any Nightfighters so it's assumed to be either Flak or poor weather; 21 aircraft were lost on that raid alone

 

John

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On 7/14/2020 at 4:37 PM, alt-92 said:

On further thinking, I find the insinuation that the Dutch authorities and Defense organisation would NOT handle the recovery of wrecks (possibly containing remains) appropriately rather insulting, to say the least.

 

Let's state the obvious here:
Recovery of wrecks from the WW2 period means a good chance of munitions are present > Explosive disposal unit (EOD) of the Army is the only certified party allowed.

Remains of aircrew > War grave, therefore the utmost care is taken, again involving certified organisations  - Joint Army/Air Force BID (Recovery and Identification Services).

 

I'm of a mind to send a strongly worded letter to the editor (with an addendum for Mr. Brooks of Ashford, Kent).

I'm afraid I am finding the BBC's style of reporting increasingly insufferable.  I do not believe for one minute that the Dutch authorities would take such a lassez-faire attitude to an undertaking like this.  

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35 minutes ago, Meatbox8 said:

. . . I do not believe for one minute that the Dutch authorities would take such a lassez-faire attitude to an undertaking like this.  

Whilst for the most part I agree with you we must remember that there are total idiots out there in charge of things like this.

 

Please let me give you a recent example.

My son had customer who had a rare BMW car. Quite badly rusted away underneath and at the front bulkhead. The customer wanted my son's garage to totally restore/rebuild the car. It was possible. He's done that sort of job before.

So a car recovery company was contracted to load the car and bring it to son's garage. Because of the car being rusted away. the plan as agreed was to jack the car up slightly and put specially made pallets under it. Strap the car to them and lift the car on its pallets, by way of the pallets, onto a truck.

The initial car recovery company sub-contracted the work to another 'expert' company

That company's operative saw, 'a rusty old car' ignored the pallets and the owner's instructions and used a sling through the car windows. The windows wouldn't open so he broke them. Instead of using the sling for off loading the operative used the tilting bed of the truck to get the car off.  What my son got delivered was a rare BMW folded in half through the roof, all glass - irreplaceable - broken and the engine compartment section broken off.  In that state it was not rebuildable

(sub note afair it was a shark nose early Series 9 BMW)

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When the Dutch continued draining the Ijsselmeer post war, they came across many crashed aircraft. I attended a talk back in the 1970s in Bury St Edmunds by the group set up to recover these aircraft. This group were most professional, recovering all human remains and as much of each airframe as was possible. Anything which was in good enough condition was preserved and offered to museums and the like. They even brought with them a Browning M2! Original manufacturers were contacted, and many artifacts were saved. One American oil company even asked from samples from engine sumps, and after testing, found the oil was as good as the day it was used.

 

The recovery team will not just turn up with a 360 excavator on a barge or a truck and go about this blindly. Don't expect the media to publish anything with a modicum of truth to it.

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1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

total idiots out there in charge of things like this

[anecdotal story missing the point]

Uh. Did you skip over the part where it says 

Quote

Let's state the obvious here:
Recovery of wrecks from the WW2 period means a good chance of munitions are present > Explosive disposal unit (EOD) of the Army is the only certified party allowed.

Remains of aircrew > War grave, therefore the utmost care is taken, again involving certified organisations  - Joint Army/Air Force BID (Recovery and Identification Services).

 

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On 7/19/2020 at 8:41 AM, Albeback52 said:

I ripped up and binned my TV licence 6 years ago so, at least they don't get my hard earned any more! 😂

Allan

 

On 7/19/2020 at 9:50 AM, Blimpyboy said:

Now you're a fugitive from justice...

I've been looking into this myself as I'm thoroughly fed up with the BBC. As long as you don't watch any live programs or BBC iPlayer, you can make a declaration to that effect on the TV Licensing website and cancel. We ditched our Sky box years ago, and only watch either Netflix, Prime or Youtube. I haven't watched terrestrial TV for years, so I don't have to pay for a license. All the info is out there, and it does seem they probably will still try to harass, but have no legal leg to stand on. May have to cancel mine then!

 

Steve

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8 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Uh. Did you skip over the part where it says 

 

as I said there are idiots out there. They do not go by the rules

A war grave crash in County Tyrone, well marked, with a cross. Farmer dug it out with a JCB, down to 15 feet. Bulldozed everything, including munitions and remains of the pilot into a ditch and covered it all with topsoil and peat. He wanted the use of that part of the field again so dug out the tainted soil. All was only discovered when a chap who annually puts a wreath there found out. No action taken against the farmer.

I know of a dozen more cases where the idiots were put in charge. A 'war grave' means nothing to them, nor does the possibility of munitions on site.

But I'll not argue my case.

Its pointless with some people.

 

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Yes, your land owners probably have more sway than in the Netherlands. 
Planning permissions, council hearings and procedures and such... 

 

There's three people here posting that we take care with WW2 wrecks. Pointless indeed.

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