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Couple of McDD RF-4E Phantom Questions


Tiger331

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Hello again Folks,

 

I have a couple of questions related to the McDonnell-Douglas RF-4E Phantom ahead of embarking on a couple of 1/48 projects. 

 

I understand, from online references, that the only RF-4Es that had the more angular undernose camera fairing were those operated by the German Air Force (and later Hellenic Air Force when they received ex-German aircraft). Those RF-4Es operated by Iran and Turkey (the two operators that I am looking to cover with my projects) had the more rounded camera fairing/nose contours associated with late-model RF-4Cs and JASDF RF-4E/EJs (according to the references).

 

Several online modelling references suggest that the Hasegawa JASDF RF-4E/EJ phantom boxings should be used for an Iranian RF-4E. Can anyone confirm if this is correct ?.

 

I suspect the Turkish Air Force question could, potentially, be more difficult to answer. If, indeed, they did receive the original RF-4Es with the rounded contours, I imagine they subsequently also received ex-German RF-4Es so they may, in theory, operate a mix of both types ?. Can anyone confirm this too ?. I have a Hasegawa RF-4E (Luftwaffe) boxing to cover this project but now realize this may be the wrong sub-variant.

 

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

 

Mark

 

         

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I cannot answer you the question about the Iranien RF-4s but yes, the Turks also received German RFs which all had the angular nose. But, to make it more confusing, the Turks (just like Greece) also rprocured some very late model RFs which had the slatted wings. So check your references!

Cheers

Michael

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It wasn't just the German RF-4Es that had the angled nose profile. The initial Iranian and Israeli deliveries also had the angled nose profile. Later deliveries for both countries had the rounded nose profile. I believe the FY69 and FY72 RF-4Es for Iran had the angled nose profile.

The original Greek and Turkish RF-4Es were identical in that the had the rounded nose profile AND slatted wings (the only countries to operate slatted wing RF-4s). Later on both countries received some RF-4Es from Germany, and these had the hard (non-slatted) wings and angled nose profile.


Using the Japanese Hasegawa RF-4Es depends on the wing tips. RF-4E Kai received larger wing tip RWR antennae so backdating it to a standard RF-4 wing tip would require some cutting and sanding.

 

HTH,

 

Jens

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10 minutes ago, Jabba said:

USAF RF-4s also had the angular profile until updated with the rounder one.

The majority of USAF RF-4Cs were not retrofitted with the rounded profile nose (I have noted less than 50 airframes with both nose profiles).

It was introduced on the production line around FY66 and was used and produced alongside the angled nose profile.

 

Jens

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4 hours ago, Jens said:

The majority of USAF RF-4Cs were not retrofitted with the rounded profile nose (I have noted less than 50 airframes with both nose profiles).

It was introduced on the production line around FY66 and was used and produced alongside the angled nose profile.

 

Jens

 

The rounded camera hatch arrangement was introduced on FY1969 USAF airframes and retrofitted to some earlier chisel camera hatch airframes. All production for FMS customers had the rounded nose except Luftwaffe RF-4Es. 

 

Go for the Japanese RF-4E* for the Iranian jet and, yes, Turkey got chisel/angular nose RF-4Es from Germany so operated both types. 

 

Tony

 

* not the RF-4EJ which was the fighter version equipped with one of three recce pods. 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, tony.t said:

 

The rounded camera hatch arrangement was introduced on FY1969 USAF airframes and retrofitted to some earlier chisel camera hatch airframes. All production for FMS customers had the rounded nose except Luftwaffe RF-4Es. 

What's your source on that last assertion?  The photographic evidence I can find supports @Jens statement above that the "chisel" nose was also operated by both Israel and Iran (both of which operated RF-4Es with both hatch styles).

 

Let's start by going back to basics: The shape of the two hatches is only a subtle differerence, so from certain angles it's difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish the two from each other.  The easiest way (IMHO) is looking at a profile/near profile view.  The early style hatch is essentially flat, but has a distinctive elongated prism-shaped cover at station #2.  The later style hatch shape is a smooth, continuous curve.  This photo from Wikipedia shows both types from the same angle on a pair of RF-4Bs (157346 has the original nose, 157349 the later style)

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Ok, so knowing what we're looking for, here are some examples of non-German RF-4Es with the early style nose:

 

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Iran RF-4E (early nose)

 

Airliners.net link:

Iran RF-4E (early style nose)

 

Airfighters.net link:

Israel RF-4E (early style nose):

 

A changeover to the later hatch design during FY69 production is consistent with Israel receiving a mixed batch, but Iran is a bit more of a mystery as their earliest deliveries were reportedly FY72 airframes.

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My comments were one-size-fits-all to assist. Too much information confuses. Of course there existed exceptions, and both Iran and Israel operated RF-4Cs on loan, which I believe were all returned. The official line is as I stated it, based on McAir info when compiling The Phantom Story, but a lot of new info. has come out since then and I haven't looked into attrition replacements, depot combat repairs and permanent loans of USAF aircraft for covert missions. Nor can I be bothered to, frankly. 

 

The Luftwaffe RF-4Es were built in the 1971-1972 timeframe but retained the earlier nose, so both types were possible at that juncture. However, although the differences lay with camera hatch profiles, it wasn't simply a matter of changing them around — the camera mounts and suchlike were slightly different. My understanding is that the chisel hatch arrangement offered a higher top speed, the curved profile greater flexibility and reduced frozen condensation issues. 

 

As the OP wanted to do an Iranian aircraft and a Turkish one, why have two the same? Use the Japanese RF-4E round nose boxing for the Iranian jet and use the Luftwaffe chisel hatch nose kit which he has for a Turkish version.

Personally, I'd do the round nose as a JASDF blue sea wave camo Woodpecker and do the straight nose as an ex-Luftwaffe Greek special.

 

Tony 

 

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Keep Calm and Carry On, Gents !

 

Thanks, one and all, genuinely for your assistance but I do want to avoid this bordering on a flame war with regard to the differences in RF-4E sub-variants !. I have conducted some concurrent research and more or less to come to the same conclusion without overly complicating the situation. I will use a JASDF RF-4E kit to replicate the IRIAF jet (although I have yet to decide which scheme I will do this model in) and an existing 'Luftwaffe' boxing of the RF-4E, with the more angular nose, to reproduce a Turkish Air Force RF-4E in the rather nice two-tone grey scheme that I have just discovered.

 

tony.t.....rest assured, I have al least two other RF-4E projects 'in the works' which will include one of the Hellenic Air Force specials and the JASDF RF-4E in the 'Sea Camouflage' farewell scheme - just waiting for the kit on backorder to arrive !.

 

Again, many thanks to everyone for your interesting and informative research on my behalf.

 

Mark

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Tony, I appreciate we're all trying to answer modeling questions and with complex issues like this it's easy to get overwhelmed with miniutiae.  It's great to present information as simply as possible, but sometimes it's necessary to to acknowledge exceptions to the usual "rules."  The slatted RF-4Es @Jens noted are just one example.

 

I did consider the possibility of "loaned" RF-4Cs, although (at minimum) in all the examples above they would have had to be modified with the later "long exhaust" J79 engines.  Also, the records for Israeli 488 indicate it was built as RF-4E 69-7592.  Jake Melampey's Phantom guide notes RF-4C 69-0376 (Block 44) as the transition point for the new nose configuration.  If I'm not misreading your statement about production circa 71-72, it seems both options being available on the production line would be a logical explanation for the Israeli and Iranian examples (without having to re-engine any undocumented RF-4Cs 😆).

 

In any case, from a modeler's standpoint what I believe all this establishes is that the early nose (which is more readily available, at least in 1/72) can be used for at least some RF-4Es from Israel and Iran, as well as Germany (and Greece and Turkey by proxy).  I'd agree if the OP's goal is building a Turkish and an Iranian example that it makes sense to build "one of each," just pointing out to him and anyone else interested that there are options.

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4 hours ago, tony.t said:

 

The rounded camera hatch arrangement was introduced on FY1969 USAF airframes and retrofitted to some earlier chisel camera hatch airframes. All production for FMS customers had the rounded nose except Luftwaffe RF-4Es. 

 

Go for the Japanese RF-4E* for the Iranian jet and, yes, Turkey got chisel/angular nose RF-4Es from Germany so operated both types. 

 

Tony

 

* not the RF-4EJ which was the fighter version equipped with one of three recce pods. 

 

 

 

Re RF-4EJ......not necessarily (to complicate matters further). I have now discovered the RF-4EJ is the recce optimised JASDF aircraft with the RF-4EJ Kai (Modernised) originating from both RF-4EJ and F-4EJ airframes so the RF-4EJ Kai designation can be used for two distinctly different aircraft sub-variants !. As always, deep research is the key to determining the accuracy of the final model and whilst I cannot be described as a 'rivet counter' (life is too short) I do like to make sure there is an above average level of accuracy with everything that I do.  

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2 hours ago, tony.t said:

Personally, I'd do the round nose as a JASDF blue sea wave camo Woodpecker

A man after my own heart! They are soooo pretty in the sea wave scheme! :like:

Mike

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1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

A man after my own heart! They are soooo pretty in the sea wave scheme! :like:

Mike

Don't look at the DXM Decals website then,

 

opppps, too late

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2 hours ago, CT7567 said:

Tony, I appreciate we're all trying to answer modeling questions and with complex issues like this it's easy to get overwhelmed with miniutiae... Jake Melampey's Phantom guide notes RF-4C 69-0376 (Block 44) as the transition point for the new nose configuration.  If I'm not misreading your statement about production circa 71-72, it seems both options being available on the production line would be a logical explanation for the Israeli and Iranian examples (without having to re-engine any undocumented RF-4Cs 😆).

 

No offence taken at all. Jake is correct, and that info appeared in The Phantom Story in 1993.

There were RF-4Cs on loan to both Israel and Iran but these were returned AFAIK, and there were sixteen Iranian RF-4Es that remain unaccounted for or were reduced to spares before delivery after the collapse of the Shah's regime and revolting students. Maybe Ollie North snuck them into Iran in his briefcase?! Now that is worth a laugh! 

 

Yes, you are not misreading my statement: both camera nose arrangements seemed to be in concurrent production, but I'm not sure where the Luftwaffe Phantoms' noses were built, as assemblies were built in Germany (just the way bits of FG.1/FGR.2 were built in Britain) for final assembly in Saint Louis. It was cheaper to go with what was current at Saint Louis for the USAF, so a couple of FMS customers must have had a trickle of chisel/flat noses but the bulk were round noses and, yes, the new Greek ones had slats as that was what Saint Louis was making then. 

 

My apologies for over-simplifying things. TBH, the Israelis pretty much did want they wanted to and pioneered changes on the F-4/RF-4 (and other) fleets which were often adopted by the USAF. If you think they were incapable of upgrading an RF-4C airframe with dash 17 engines think again. They integrated the P&W 1120 into an F-4E at one time.

 

Cheers

 

Tony 

 

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4 hours ago, tony.t said:

My comments were one-size-fits-all to assist. Too much information confuses. Of course there existed exceptions, and both Iran and Israel operated RF-4Cs on loan, which I believe were all returned. The official line is as I stated it, based on McAir info when compiling The Phantom Story, but a lot of new info. has come out since then and I haven't looked into attrition replacements, depot combat repairs and permanent loans of USAF aircraft for covert missions. Nor can I be bothered to, frankly. 

 

The Luftwaffe RF-4Es were built in the 1971-1972 timeframe but retained the earlier nose, so both types were possible at that juncture. However, although the differences lay with camera hatch profiles, it wasn't simply a matter of changing them around — the camera mounts and suchlike were slightly different. My understanding is that the chisel hatch arrangement offered a higher top speed, the curved profile greater flexibility and reduced frozen condensation issues. 

 

As the OP wanted to do an Iranian aircraft and a Turkish one, why have two the same? Use the Japanese RF-4E round nose boxing for the Iranian jet and use the Luftwaffe chisel hatch nose kit which he has for a Turkish version.

Personally, I'd do the round nose as a JASDF blue sea wave camo Woodpecker and do the straight nose as an ex-Luftwaffe Greek special.

 

Tony 

 

No, wrong information causes confusion. The chisel nosed RF-4Es in Iranian and Israeli service were not exceptions, they were part of the rule.

 

As for the RF-4Cs on loan, do you have any information on the ones supposedly operated by Iran? I mean, other that the usual rumours and the misinterpretation of the two RF-4Cs in Israeli colour scheme?

The two RF-4Cs loaned to Israel were 69-0369 and 69-0370, both with the chisel nose. The were on loan in 1970-71 and were photographed in the UK upon return to USAF.

Incidentally the Israeli chisel nosed RF-4Es all wore the IAF scheme while the rounded nosed ones wore the compass ghost grey scheme.

 

Jens

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7 minutes ago, Jens said:

No, wrong information causes confusion. The chisel nosed RF-4Es in Iranian and Israeli service were not exceptions, they were part of the rule.

 

As for the RF-4Cs on loan, do you have any information on the ones supposedly operated by Iran? I mean, other that the usual rumours and the misinterpretation of the two RF-4Cs in Israeli colour scheme?

The two RF-4Cs loaned to Israel were 69-0369 and 69-0370, both with the chisel nose. The were on loan in 1970-71 and were photographed in the UK upon return to USAF.

Incidentally the Israeli chisel nosed RF-4Es all wore the IAF scheme while the rounded nosed ones wore the compass ghost grey scheme.

 

Jens

Re: Iran, I wish I did!  The 1970s were a fascinating period of reconnaissance systems development moving into dual-band IRLS, Elint sensors, SAR and near real-time data-linking linked to the new Arnie system, and lots of one-offs. I'm not sure the RF-4Cs alleged to be in Iran were flown by Iranians. 

 

My apologies again for over-simplifying things, I really didn't realise it would cause such terrible, dreadful indignation or confusion. My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that rounded noses were by far the more numerous on non-Luftwaffe FMS RF-4Es and are therefore the norm. 

 

The Hasegawa JASDF RF-4E boxing says just that. It's a great kit but how I wish we had a good 1/32 scale Photo-Phantom.

 

Cheers, a good discussion. 

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/8/2020 at 8:15 AM, Tiger331 said:

 

Hello again Folks,

 

I have a couple of questions related to the McDonnell-Douglas RF-4E Phantom ahead of embarking on a couple of 1/48 projects. 

 

I understand, from online references, that the only RF-4Es that had the more angular undernose camera fairing were those operated by the German Air Force (and later Hellenic Air Force when they received ex-German aircraft). Those RF-4Es operated by Iran and Turkey (the two operators that I am looking to cover with my projects) had the more rounded camera fairing/nose contours associated with late-model RF-4Cs and JASDF RF-4E/EJs (according to the references).

 

Several online modelling references suggest that the Hasegawa JASDF RF-4E/EJ phantom boxings should be used for an Iranian RF-4E. Can anyone confirm if this is correct ?.

 

I suspect the Turkish Air Force question could, potentially, be more difficult to answer. If, indeed, they did receive the original RF-4Es with the rounded contours, I imagine they subsequently also received ex-German RF-4Es so they may, in theory, operate a mix of both types ?. Can anyone confirm this too ?. I have a Hasegawa RF-4E (Luftwaffe) boxing to cover this project but now realize this may be the wrong sub-variant.

 

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

 

Mark

 

         

Hi Mark,

 Iranian and Turkish had / have RF-4Es equipped with both the squared and the rounded camera nose fairings.

 

Iran: The first batch of 4 RF-4Es (from block 48)  suppied to the IIAF had squared noses. Interestingly, three of these four birds currently remain in service with the IRIAF ( 72-0266/2-6501 in Asia Minor camo, 72-0267/2-6502 in blue camo and 72-0269/2-6504 that used the Asia Minor camo with black undersides during the 1st GW) If you plan to do one of these birds, you can perfectly use Hasegawa's  "Luftwaffe RF-4E" boxing without any changes together with this decal sheet:

 

Hi-Decal  HD48023 / HD72053 - with markings for the 2nd ( 2-6502 blue ) , 3rd ( 2-435 shot down over South Yemen in 1976 )  and 4th ( 2-6504 with black belly )  Iranian RF-4Es.

 spacer.png

 

Later, 12 more RF-4Es (4 from block 61 and 8 from block 62) with rounded noses were supplied to the IIAF, two of  them ( 74-1730/2-6510 and 74-1736 / 2-6516)  suriviving till today, the others (7) having been shut down during the 1 GW or lost in accidents (3)

 

Re Turkish AF RF-4Es in the current disruptive scheme, you have again two options:

 

Hi-Decal HD48028 / HD72058 includes markings for RF-4E 77-0314 with "spook" tail art...

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...this was one of 8 slatted RF-4Es with rounded nose delivered to the THK. Here you can use a Japanese AF RF-4E boxing with the rounded nose and take the outer slated wing parts from an F-4E/F kit. 

 

As we designed these decals during 2012, the 173 Filo Phantoms just started to get their "Spook" tail art and 77-0314 just came back from the painting booth shortly before the fatal mission.  But now, you can also do an ex-Luftwaffe bird with squared nose from the same squadron, simply changing the serial to 69-7468, for example, the markings being the same...however it is worth noting the the former Luftwaffe birds don't have the yellow slime light on their tails... Also the overpainted crew names are making the things simpler...

 

spacer.png

 

I hope these data will be helpful for you. In case of further questions please don't hesitate to ask.

 

greetings

Diego

 

Edited by Diego
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2 hours ago, Diego said:

Hi Mark,

 Iranian and Turkish had / have RF-4Es equipped with both the squared and the rounded camera nose fairings.

 

Iran: The first batch of RF-4Es suppied to the IIAF had squared noses. Interestingly, these are the birds that remain in service currently with the IRIAF ( 72-0266/2-6501 in Asia Minor camo, 72-0267/2-6502 in blue camo and 72-0269/2-6504 that used the Asia Minor camo with black undersides during the 1st GW) If you plan to do one of these birds, you can perfectly use Hasegawa's  "Luftwaffe RF-4E" boxing without any changes together with this decal sheet:

 

Hi-Decal  HD48023 / HD72053 - with markings for the 2nd ( 2-6502 blue ) , 3rd ( 2-435 shot down over South Yemen )  and 4th ( 2-6504 with black belly )  Iranian RF-4Es.

 spacer.png

 

 

Re Turkish AF RF-4Es in the current disruptive scheme, you have again two options:

 

Hi-Decal HD48028 / HD72058 includes markings for RF-4E 77-0314 with "spook" tail art...

spacer.png

spacer.png

...this was one of 8 slatted RF-4Es with rounded nose delivered to the THK. Here you can use a Japanese AF RF-4E boxing with the rounded nose and take the outer slated wing parts from an F-4E/F kit (Hasegawa, Revell etc) 

 

As we designed these decals during 2012, the 173 Filo Phantoms just started to get their "Spook" tail art and 77-0314 just came back from the painting booth shortly before the fatal mission.  But now, you can also do an ex-Luftwaffe bird with squared nose from the same squadron, simply changing the serial to 69-7468, for example, the markings being the same...however it is worth noting the the former Luftwaffe birds don't have the yellow slime light on their tails... Also the overpainted crew names are making the things simpler...

 

spacer.png

 

I hope these data will be helpful for you. In case of further questions please don't hesitate to ask.

 

greetings

Diego

 

Diego,

 

This is all enormously helpful to me in determining the way forward. Coincidentally, I already have the TuAF RF-4ETM from the Hi-Decal sheet on my project list but had 'allocated' a standard Luftwaffe RF-4E kit to complete this one, with planning underway to allocate a JASDF RF-4E kit to the IRIAF project (probably the two-tone blue one 72-0267/2-6502). Now all I have to do is swop the kits around !. I was aware that some of the TuAF RF-4Es had slatted wings but, again, your confirmation regarding the RF-4ETM was helpful and I am fortunate enough to have a 'spare' Hasegawa F-4S kit which will become the wing donor for the TuAF project.  

 

Thanks again for your clarification.

 

Mark       

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Just remember that most of those early flat nose FMS RF-4Es were essentially RF-4Cs with dash 17 engines, lacking the E No.7 fuel cell (which you can't see) but retaining the C port fuselage RAT and red stripe. 

 

Those decals do look enticing! 

 

Tony 

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5 hours ago, Tiger331 said:

Diego,

 

This is all enormously helpful to me in determining the way forward. Coincidentally, I already have the TuAF RF-4ETM from the Hi-Decal sheet on my project list but had 'allocated' a standard Luftwaffe RF-4E kit to complete this one, with planning underway to allocate a JASDF RF-4E kit to the IRIAF project (probably the two-tone blue one 72-0267/2-6502). Now all I have to do is swop the kits around !. I was aware that some of the TuAF RF-4Es had slatted wings but, again, your confirmation regarding the RF-4ETM was helpful and I am fortunate enough to have a 'spare' Hasegawa F-4S kit which will become the wing donor for the TuAF project.  

 

Thanks again for your clarification.

 

Mark       

Hi Mark,

I am really glad to hear these informations could be useful for you :)

Only the last 16 RF-4Es produced in St.Louis ( 8 for Turkey and 8 for Greece) had the slatted wings. Therefore this is indeed an interesting version of the recce Rhino.

BTW: You will find the big white LOROP long range camera pod in 1/48th scale  Hasegawa JASDF RF-4EJ boxings ( the kit include two different pods -see images below- , so many people will have the LOROP -on the second picture- pod as leftover)

These 16 recce Phantoms were also wired to carry, (and carried) AIM-9 Sidewinders for self defence, specially the two Turkish birds during their "delicate" LOROP flights...

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spacer.png

Greetings

Diego

 

 

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Here's a question I have never found a satisfactory answer to. I have read that up to 6 Phantoms  (RFs) for the Iranian Air Force were never delivered, but were stored (incomplete) at the St Louis factory. So, if they existed, I assume they had the rounded nose but slatted or unslatted wings?

 

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47 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

Here's a question I have never found a satisfactory answer to. I have read that up to 6 Phantoms  (RFs) for the Iranian Air Force were never delivered, but were stored (incomplete) at the St Louis factory. So, if they existed, I assume they had the rounded nose but slatted or unslatted wings?

 

In november 1977 Iran placed an order for 16 additional RF-4Es for delivery during 1979 to form a 2nd recce squadron, 31 more F-4Es as well as  options for new F-4Gs, F-16A/Bs and E-3 Sentry aircraft. The whole order was however cancelled in February 1980 by the new Islamic Republic for political reasons. Therefore, the already partially build 16 airframes, with rounded noses and slatted wings ( serials 78-0751 to 754; 78-0788; 78-0854 to 864) - the best equipped RF-4Es ever - were reduced to components...

 

Greetings

Diego

Edited by Diego
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