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Ospreys for Indonesia?

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Perhaps Indonesia sees the Osprey as giving them a military flexibility the likes of which they couldn't have before. Given the cost of military hardware, flexibility is a key consideration for many nations.

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Makes sense considering the size of Indonesia,..... but it does seem strange all the same,...... I wonder if the USA will allow it? I wish the UK would buy a squadron`s worth for COD, Junglie and SF Support,..... and even for AEW.

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I would have thought that Australia would have had a look at the Osprey by now, especially with the expansion into amphib and littoral ops.

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Off topic, but is the Osprey actually considered a good TACTICAL aircraft?

Wasn't it big and sluggish and very predictable in the landing phase?

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7 hours ago, Greg B said:

I would have thought that Australia would have had a look at the Osprey by now, especially with the expansion into amphib and littoral ops.

We’re looking. 

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Given the number of Taipans and Chinooks Australia will be using, is the exorbitant cost of the V-22 bullet magnet worth it, from a cost-effectiveness point of view - especially for a similar payload?

 

One would hope they’d be more interested in a follow-on design (depending on $$$$).

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4 hours ago, exdraken said:

Off topic, but is the Osprey actually considered a good TACTICAL aircraft?

Wasn't it big and sluggish and very predictable in the landing phase?

 

Gents,

 

If the Indonesians are looking at the MV-22 then they must have money to burn. Whilst I've enjoyed photographing and watching the type at Mildenhall since they first turned up in 2013, even now they're hardly a reliable and capable piece of equipment, particularly in the SF role. Even the more basic MV-22 used by the USMC has many restrictions on it's operations that were not applied to it's predecessor, the Sea Knight. I remember reading an article not that long ago by a former USN helo pilot who stated that they're not allowed to operate alone over water, and that they're time operating over the sea is also restricted. From the many sorties I have seen dispatched from Midlenhall I would say there is a one in three chance that the aircraft will cancel prior to departure due to serviceability. They also take forever to prepare and launch, with several hours between preparing and rotor start, plus sometimes up to a hour after that before lifting. How this makes them a good SF aircraft I do not know, but is probably down to what was available for conversion to the role more than anything else. It may be quite telling that the SOS at Mildenhall require more CV-22 airframes than the old MH-53s to generate sorties. After the near loss of several CV-22s to small arms fire in Africa several years ago, they rolled out a armour package for the type, but find it's already struggling with weight issues in hot climates, and this has only added to the problems. I think it's one type that the UK can avoid, as it's a niche capability that can be covered by other types, maybe not quite as well when the Osprey actually is serviceable, but well enough that we don't need to spend a fortune on another type in small numbers.

 

Gary 

 

 

  

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, exdraken said:

Wasn't it big and sluggish and very predictable in the landing phase?


Show me a troop/cargo-carrying helicopter that isn’t!

Edited by Blimpyboy

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31 minutes ago, Blimpyboy said:

Given the number of Taipans and Chinooks Australia will be using, is the exorbitant cost of the V-22 bullet magnet worth it, from a cost-effectiveness point of view - especially for a similar payload?

 

One would hope they’d be more interested in a follow-on design (depending on $$$$).

Long range AME from the fat ships is the gap. Need to sort that. 

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I've always found it very telling that the Osprey has never been cleared to carry the US President. Presumably, extreme emergency situations could over-ride this lack-of-clearance.

 

Chris. 

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2 minutes ago, GMK said:

Long range AME from the fat ships is the gap. Need to sort that.


True, but not at V-22 asking prices.

Cheaper to use Chinooks and Taipans.

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27 minutes ago, Blimpyboy said:


True, but not at V-22 asking prices.

Cheaper to use Chinooks and Taipans.

Neither have the range nor the speed.  Never heard the MRH90s referred to as Taipans outside of media releases. 

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Posted (edited)

It’s true, but the cost of a V-22 far outweighs any range benefits - especially when you consider a similar payload and the bullet magnet factor.

 

The media releases reflect the name given by the service(s) - plus, one does hear the name in various service activities.

Edited by Blimpyboy

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17 hours ago, tonyot said:

Makes sense considering the size of Indonesia,..... but it does seem strange all the same,...... I wonder if the USA will allow it? I wish the UK would buy a squadron`s worth for COD, Junglie and SF Support,..... and even for AEW.

Up until the weekend i would have said you might get a flights worth for COD/CSAR/any thing special but the way its going....hmm nuff said 

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Of course, a request is not the same as a sale. In any case, it does seem quite an off-the-wall choice for the Indonesians. Even Israel seems to have gone lukewarm on the idea of V-22s, and the world's air forces are not exactly beating on the door to buy them. They are a niche aircraft, as revolutionary as they appear to be, and I do not think many will appear in anything other than US markings.

 

The first time they came across for RIAT and Farnborough I managed to get a peak in the back, and I was surprised at how small they are on the inside. In terms of space they did not seem to offer anything more than a Sea Knight, and the Merlin seemed cavernous by comparison.

 

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Your comments on the interior Truro are exactly what I thought when looking in one at Farnborough years ago. I thought it a hell of a lot of aeroplane to get such a small cabin about. Without sounding jingoistic, the Merlin seems a much better prospect .  Speed is a fine goal in this requirement but when the aircraft gets to its destination they are all very vulnerable.

 

Keith

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Britman said:

but when the aircraft gets to its destination they are all very vulnerable

 

All too true a risk for all battlefield cargo/assault aircraft.

 

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Edited by Blimpyboy

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Huge fan of the Merlin as I am, I was surprised by a diagram in “The Air Saff and the Helicopter” by Chris Gibson comparing the size, deck footprint, of the Merlin, Sea King and Chinook without their rotors. Admittedly neither of the first two were shown with folded tails. Surprisingly there wasn’t a lot to choose between them. There is a blade folding kit available for Chinook but not sure offhand if it is powered or manual.

 

Since then my thoughts have turned to the idea of a fully marinised version of Chinook for Operation from the QE carriers (power folding blades, fully marinised engines etc) if you need something bigger than Merlin. Any embarked so far have kept their rotors spread, even when struck down into the hangars. 

 

 

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On 07/07/2020 at 21:00, Blimpyboy said:

It’s true, but the cost of a V-22 far outweighs any range benefits - especially when you consider a similar payload and the bullet magnet factor.

 

The media releases reflect the name given by the service(s) - plus, one does hear the name in various service activities.

Cost? Considering the special kids are looking to replace Blackhawk with a smaller aircraft (MH-6 is apparently lusted after from probably watching too much Blackhawk down) and from that lose a lot of capability/flexibility to suit a niche and as yet unused capability to the detriment of the wider defence force, I think cost is not a deciding factor when it comes to procurement here. 

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Posted (edited)

I think cost is much less of an issue when it comes to small numbers of niche mission platforms, for roles that can’t always be done well with standard platforms (think EW and special ops that have to be done right the first time). Gold-plated solutions for these needs are financially more palatable.

 

However, for what is essentially a bog standard battle bus of a similar vintage to, and with no more carrying capacity than existing platforms (and is arguably bulkier, more complex, maintenance intensive, and is likely to cost significantly more to implement ongoing technical fixes) I would say the cost is definitely an issue.

MRH-90 unit cost = approx. 42 million.

CV-22 unit cost = approx. 72 million.

 

Plus the US wouldn’t let Australia make it, or large quantities of bits for it, which further reduces its value.

Edited by Blimpyboy

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29 minutes ago, Blimpyboy said:

I think cost is much less of an issue when it comes to small numbers of niche mission platforms, for roles that can’t always be done well with standard platforms (think EW and special ops that have to be done right the first time). Gold-plated solutions for these needs are financially more palatable.

 

 

Agreed, but I believe the intent is to replace all of the blackhawk fleet with a smaller and therefore less capable aircraft with shorter legs in an area where capacity and range are important. The special kids get a nice shiny new toy, suitable for them and them alone, the rest of the ADF has a reduced capability.  

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Posted (edited)

My understanding is that the Army is not seeking a Blackhawk replacement, but a different type of aircraft altogether. In this regard, the remaining small number of Blackhawks are now principally intended for use in special operations, and only as an interim platform (especially given the Taipan’s ‘issues’).

 

I think too, that that the chicken stranglers intend to stage forward using standard transport options and then disperse into smaller platforms for the actual mission.

 

From here:

https://www.australiandefence.com.au/news/special-forces-helicopter-industry-brief-for-land-2097-phase-4

Kell O’Brien from Special Operations Command outlined that the craft would have to be able to perform domestic and maritime counter terrorism, special operational recovery and combat SAR missions with a strong focus on recovery, interdiction and assault.

“The capability needs to be able to insert and/or extract six operators at precision landing points,” O’Brien said. “This helicopter is replacing Black Hawk but this is not a Black Hawk replacement program, as that program is transitioning to the MRH-90 Taipan.”

 

 

I don’t think Australian special operations forces do too many long-range single platform/single sortie infiltrations like the US, except for when allies are there to assist. That’s still a cheaper and more effective option, I would think.

 

Hmmm, will all this talk of special forces get us ‘disappeared’?

Edited by Blimpyboy

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