Hurricane IIc 33 Sqn RAF Lybia Late 1942

[Wez]

Morning all,

 

Xtradecal sheet 72-113 is for Hurricane IIc's, one of the options is BP588 coded RS-X of 33 Sqn RAF, at Benina, Lybia in late 1942.

 

The aircraft is in the standard desert scheme except for the codes and the spinner.  The codes are given in black, which is unusual but is there anything to substantiate this?

 

Secondly, the spinner is shown as red for the forward half and black for the rear half, again this is unusual but is it substantiated anywhere?

 

I've tried Googling for images of the aircraft and I get a lot of pictures of built models or profiles.  While these show the black codes the spinner is either all red (which would be the standard colour scheme), or black.  As @Troy Smith says, never trust a profile without a photo.

 

I quite like the red and black option though

[Boman]

There is a picture here of RS-X, but can't tell if it supposed to be the same aircraft: 

 

https://www.old.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,jackallan.html

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Wez said:

The aircraft is in the standard desert scheme except for the codes and the spinner.  The codes are given in black, which is unusual but is there anything to substantiate this?

 

Secondly, the spinner is shown as red for the forward half and black for the rear half, again this is unusual but is it substantiated anywhere?

I'm not very impressed with Xtradecal, they make a lot of slap dash detail errors....

 

Anyway, yes, there is a photo, page 132 of Hurricane At War, but listed as being 30 squadron patrolling the skies over Ceylon.

There are enough interesting details that I'll post up the image in a mo, but I want to see what Xtradecal have 'done' on this one as well....

The page lined by @Boman is not the same plane.

[ClaudioN]

32 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Anyway, yes, there is a photo, page 132 of Hurricane At War, but listed as being 30 squadron patrolling the skies over Ceylon.

This was also my instinctive reaction...

Oddly, both 33 Sqn in North Africa and 30 Sqn in Ceylon used the same 'RS' squadron code and the same type of aircraft.

[Troy Smith]

OK @Wez

 

Huuricane RS-X BP588 50620092 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Air Britain has BP588 as 33/247. (so not 30 Sq at Ceylon) BP589 is neither 30 or 33.

Xtradecal https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/X72113

"BP588 RS-X 33 Sqn S/Ldr S.C.Norris CO 1942"

 

They get the non standard fin stripe, high and narrow,  but miss the S/Ldr pennant just visible.

 

I'm dubious about the two colour spinner, I'd suggest this is just the photo picking up the prop blades.

 

Note just a cannon visible, Xtradecal do seem to show this on their placement guide,  but if only fitted with two cannon, the inner on was kept, not the outer.

 

The inverted camo is of note,  Middlestone usually runs through the cockpit area.

 

I'll put a @tonyot in as he's very good on Hurricanes, and maybe able to add some more.

 

HTH

[Wez]

All,

 

Many thanks especially @Troy Smith, from what I'm reading, BP588 was with 33 Sqn, 33 Sqn and 30 Sqn used the same codes and aircraft (just to confuse the spies no doubt).

 

It's in the desert scheme albeit with the colours inverted but the black codes are legitimate and a red spinner most likely.

 

Given the red spinner and the full colour national markings, to my mind it's highly unlikely that the aircraft was based in Ceylon.

 

Good spot on the two cannon rather than four.  Remind me, these cannon were drum fed not belt fed so they wouldn't have got extra ammo put into the vacated gun bay?

[Boman]

"In August 1939, as war loomed, the squadron moved back to RAF Ismailia in Egypt and carried out escort missions in the Western Desert and provided fighter defence of Alexandria.[12][13][a] In November 1940, it was sent to Greece to operate its Blenheims in both the bomber and fighter roles, but in March 1941 the squadron was redesignated a fighter unit. After the fall of Greece and the Battle of Crete the squadron returned to Egypt and was re-equipped with Hawker Hurricanes and employed on night defence of Alexandria and shipping protection patrols before moving on to operations in the Western Desert.[14][15]

When the situation in the Far East worsened the squadron was ordered to reinforce allied forces in Java, but by the time the squadron left Egypt, Java, had already fallen, and the squadron was ferried by the aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable to Ceylon arriving on 6 March 1942, just in time to assist in resisting the Japanese carrier strike against the island.[16] This raid took place on 5 April 1942 with 21 aircraft being launched from its base at RAF Ratmalana whilst under heavy fire from Japanese aircraft. Seven of the squadron's Hurricanes were lost, with five of its pilots being killed or dying later of wounds received during the battle. It claimed 14 Japanese aircraft shot down, together with six probably destroyed and five damaged, out of a total claim for the whole of the island's defences of 24 shot down, 7 probables and 9 damaged. In fact, the Japanese lost seven aircraft, with a further 15 damaged.[17][18]

In February 1944, it moved to the Burma front flying escort and ground attack missions and in May 1944 was re-equipped with American Republic P-47 Thunderbolts, which it took back into action in October until May 1945."

 

Seems they (30sq) were just about everywhere but mainland Europe during WW2. But 33sq never carried "RS" codes, that was reserved for 
No. 229 Operational Conversion Unit, No. 30 Squadron, No. 157 Squadron  and No. 171 Squadron. 

 

I'd say that the unit is indeed 30 sq in Ceylon and that the reference to Africa is not correct. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Boman

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Boman said:

Seems they (30sq) were just about everywhere but mainland Europe during WW2. But 33sq never carried "RS" codes, that was reserved for 
No. 229 Operational Conversion Unit, No. 30 Squadron, No. 157 Squadron  and No. 171 Squadron. 

 

somewhat contradicted by the link you posted here, 

https://www.old.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,jackallan.html

 

which list 33 Sq as being in North Africa in Nov 42, 

with a photo of RS-X. BP184

 

showing RS codes, and is listed in Air Britain as being with 33 Sq

 

also, the Wiki page on 3 Sq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._33_Squadron_RAF

 

Quote

Squadron codes

SO (Sep 1938 – May 1939)
TN (May 1939 – Sep 1939)
NW (Sep 1939 – May 1941)
5R (Apr 1944 – Apr 1951)

 

nothing listed for June 41 to Mar 44

 

putting S#33 Sqn S/Ldr S.C.Norris  into google gets (from Osprey aces books listings) 

 

Quote

Hurricane Aces 1941–45

Hurricane IIC BP588/RS-X of Sqn Ldr SC Norris, No 33 Sqn, Benina, Libya, ...

 

Spitfire Aces of North Africa and Italy

Spitfire VB ER773/RS-J of Sqn Ldr SC Norris, No 33 Sqn, Bersis, Libya, February 1943 

 

which is interesting.  There are example of other units using the same codes. 

 

I'll put an @Graham Boak and @tonyot here as maybe of interest and they can add to this discussion? 

[tonyot]

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I'll put an @Graham Boak and @tonyot here as maybe of interest and they can add to this discussion? 

Nah mate,.... you are doing fine on your own,..... with you all the way though!

[Wez]

So the consensus is it's a 33 Sqn aircraft, based in Lybia, the spinner is red, the codes are indeed black, the camouflage is reversed and the two outer cannons have been removed?

 

Just goes to show that there's no such thing as a simple question when it comes to Hurricanes.

[ClaudioN]

11 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Squadron codes

SO (Sep 1938 – May 1939)
TN (May 1939 – Sep 1939)
NW (Sep 1939 – May 1941)
5R (Apr 1944 – Apr 1951)

Codes were sometimes odd in North Africa.

NW was retained on the Gladiators when they were transferred to No. 3 Sqn. RAAF, YK appears to have been similarly shared by Nos 80 and 274 Sqns., as were indeed the very few Hurricanes available at the time.

Perhaps applying new codes was not a priority when aircraft changed owner?

"Combat Codes" shows RS in use by both 30 and 33 Sqns at the same time, in early 1942 in the Middle East. Maybe again a case of transferring both the aircraft and their unit code?

 

The Middle East and Far East were entirely different theatres of war, I believe duplication of codes was not considered an issue. 30 Sqn. may have simple retained "its own", and did so to the end of the war.

The change from RS to 5R for 33 Sqn. coincides with its transfer back to the UK in late April-May 1944 in preparation for D-Day.

[EwenS]

I'm coming to this discussion late but believe that I may have the answer to the question of why both 30 and 33 might have worn the same codes around the same time in the Middle East.

 

Last year when researching what was going on in the Indian Ocean in March/April 1942 I came upon a post from a well respected Canadian author, Rob Stuart, whose particular interest concerns the Indian Ocean in early 1942. That included the transfer of 30 and 261 squadrons to Ceylon on HMS Indomitable from 25 Feb 1942. He wrote:-

 

"As for why some of the 60 Hurricanes were Mk I’s, I agree with what you say about the drawbacks of including them along with the more numerous Mark II’s. From AIR 8/881, which has been kindly provided to me by “Tom from Cornwall” very recently, from Hurricanes Over the Sands, and from the ORBs, it looks like 30 and 261 squadrons flew their Mark Is to No.108 M.U. before leaving Egypt and were given 36 Mark IIB’s, flown overland from Takoradi, when they got to Port Sudan. However, on 17 February Portal told Tedder to get as many Hurricanes on Indomitable as would fit. Apparently there were only another 14 Mark II’s on hand, also flown in from Takoradi I think, so 10 Mark I’s from the Middle East were embarked, since 60 dismantled Hurricanes could be squeezed aboard the carrier. I expect that nothing but Mark II’s would have been sent if 60 of them could have been got to Port Sudan in time but apparently that was not possible."

 

There were 50 Hurricane IIb and 10 Hurricane I delivered by Indomitable to Ceylon.

 

So 30 squadron's original complement of RS coded Hurricanes (Mk IIa and IIb per Halley's "Squadrons of the RAF and Commonwealth") were left at 108MU at the Kilo 17 airfield 25 miles SW of Cairo. This unit was an aircraft storage unit. The personnel then travelled south to Port Sudan, collected new aircraft, which were loaded onto Indomitable partially disassembled, for transport to Java but diverted to Ceylon. Those aircraft would then be given the code letters RS that the squadron had been using and end up in Ceylon. "Combat Codes" notes Hurricane I for the sqn in the Middle East (supported by Halley with them being present to 2/42) but Hurricane IIb in both the Middle and Far East. Then in Aug 1942 it received Hurricane IIc (Halley again and "Combat Codes"). So RS coded Hurricanes from May 1941 to July 1944 but spread over 2 theatres of war.

 

Meanwhile, back in Egypt, 33 squadron had stopped using the NW code on its Hurricane I in cMay 1941 (see "Combat Codes")."Combat Codes" notes it as using RS on Hurricane IIc from 2/42. But it also had Hurricane IIb at that time (Halley again). As noted it was not uncommon for the same code letters to be used in different theatres of war. So, with 30 sqn moved to the Far East theatre and 33 not using any code between about May 1941 and Feb 1942, it may well be that the "old" 30 sqn Hurricane IIb with the RS codes were reissued to 33 squadron which then adopted the RS code, rather than repaint the aircraft. That code then gets applied to the new Hurricane IIc aircraft that it is also issued with and to subsequent Spitfires until mid-1943. When it finally returned to the UK in April 1944 it had to change codes as RS was already in use on 157 sqn Mosquitoes.

 

Simples really! Until someone comes along to blow a hole in it!!

 

 

[Boman]

@Troy Smith I'll do the walk of shame on that one, missing out the photo I had linked to earlier. Sorry mate! 

 

As to the use of same squadron codes in North Africa as in GB, this was supposedly done in an attempt to confuse the enemy. Information on this comes from story of the 31FG USAAF which carried the same codes eventually as the 4FG in UK. 
But as @EwenS point out, sometimes a new unit would take over aircraft from a previous unit, retaining their codes atleast for a while. 

 

A decent source for all the RAF unit codes (including doubles) is this link on wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_RAF_squadron_codes