BS381c Equivalents for MAP/RAF Dark Earth & Dark Green

[Nobby Clarke]

First let me say that I know that BS381c was not used as a colour standard for the paints used on RAF aircraft during WWII. The war time MAP maintained their own specs for colours with associated standards. However, Dark Earth and Dark Green were added to BS381c in 1964 if I'm not mistaken.

 

From reading threads on this site I learned that Dark Earth was initially numbered 450 (in 1964 edition), then renumbered to 350 (in 1980 edition). Similarly, Dark Green was initially 641 (in 1964 edition) and subsequently renumbered to 241 (1980 edition). The reason for this was to align the numbering with the defined colour grouping: 300 series for browns and 200 series for greens. 

 

I also read that the colour standards remained the same, just the numbering was changed. However, when I look at sites like www.e-paint.co.uk the digital data associated with 450 is clearly different to 350, and the same when 641 is compared to 241. Further, I have the British Standard Colours fan deck from e-paint.co.uk where the differences are visually perceptible.

 

Can anybody explain the reasons why there are differences between the colour pairs?

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Nobby Clarke
fixed typos

[JPuente54]

Sounds like a question for @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies to answer.

[Work In Progress]

1 hour ago, Nobby Clarke said:

the color standards remained the same

Not quite sure what you're asking, but I assume that you may have an interest in the applicability of these colours to WW2 types or you would not be asking here in the WW2 forum.

 

The colours are different because they have no particular reason to be the same. I'm afraid whatever source gave you that information about the colours standards being the same is wrong. The addition of Dark Green and Dark Earth to the post-war BS381c was not intended to reproduce older WW2 colours exactly, not to be "the" Dark Green and Dark Earth, just "a" Dark Green and Dark Earth, to add some extra colours the the BS381c range that did a similar job. There was no requirement to match the older colours and any such requirement would have had no functional benefit.

 

As a consequence the BS381c Dark Green and Dark Earth colours, while broadly equivalent to their namesakes in the MAP colours, are not identical, and this has been widely recognised from full size examples over the years.

 

However, if your interest is solely in the differences between the two post-war shades then I suggest you ask the question again in the Cold War section which deals with such subjects

Edited July 3, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

17 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

The colours are different because they have no particular reason to be the same. I'm afraid whatever source gave you that information about the colours standards being the same is wrong. The addition of Dark Green and Dark Earth to the post-war BS381c was not intended to reproduce older WW2 colours exactly, not to be "the" Dark Green and Dark Earth, just "a" Dark Green and Dark Earth, to add some extra colours the the BS381c range that did a similar job. There was no requirement to match the older colours and any such requirement would have had no functional benefit.

 

As a consequence the BS381c Dark Green and Dark Earth colours, while broadly equivalent to their namesakes in the MAP colours, are not identical, and this has been widely recognised from full size examples over the years.

That's a very interesting statement, as I have not seen it made before, which although not unheard of would be somewhat odd for something "widely recognised".   I have long believed that the colours as first taken into BS381C were indeed the same colours as the wartime ones.  Far from there being no reason for them to be, they were specifically the RAF colours intended (and indeed used) for postwar use, just adopted into British Standards rather than being maintained separately.  It would be very odd for the RAF to change the colours it had used for no good reason.  Why they would change from 450 to 350 and from 641 to 241  I don't know, but suspect that would be the time for any change from the wartime standards.

 

More please.

[noelh]

This colour conundrum has been well debated over the years. I'm fairly sure you'll find lots of threads on the subject here on BM.

I always understood that the modern RAF Dark Green was different to the wartime Dark Green. As WIP says they're 'different because there's no particular reason for them to be the same'. 

 

The only thing I know is to never use Humbrol 30! 🤣

[Graham Boak]

You'll probably find my name in some of them.  However, it may depend on what you mean by "modern".  There was certainly a (personally observed in close-up) change between Jaguar (and MRCA P03)  and production Tornado, the colour becoming lighter.  After than there were a number of different greens in RAF use, NATO Green and Lichen Green being two.  However, the question included the earlier BS381C colours.  The Standards Institute was not a dictatorial centre instructing all users which colour they had to use, but a collation of those colours already in use (and being added).  Opposing your declaration, there was a very good reason for them to be the same and no reason for them to be different, in the late 40s.  What happened after the 70s may well be another matter, but the earliest BS381C colours should be a match for the wartime RAF ones.  The same colours were in use throughout the 50s and into the 60s.

 

It could be added that similar discussions in the past, for example that the 50's PRU Blue was lighter than the wartime shade, or that Sky was different on FAA aircraft of this period, have concluded that there was no difference.

 

However, rather than arguing the toss in terms of "well debated"  and "always understood", all it takes is someone with a copy of the MAP wartime standards to compare the colours with the BSC381C examples.  I have the former but the latter only online, and I prefer comparisons between the originals, like to like.

[Nobby Clarke]

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

However, rather than arguing the toss in terms of "well debated"  and "always understood", all it takes is someone with a copy of the MAP wartime standards to compare the colours with the BSC381C examples.  I have the former but the latter only online, and I prefer comparisons between the originals, like to like.

I have never seen a copy of the original MAP wartime standards (only photos on sites like this). However, I do have a copy of the 1976 RAF Museum book titled ‘British Aviation Colours of World War Two”. Is this what you are referring to?

[Graham Boak]

yes

[Nobby Clarke]

Rats! I was rather hoping you had a copy of the original MAP wartime standards.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I have both, but the British Standards Institute is typically British in that it's very expensive to have anything to do with them and what they produce is of a quality associated with a much lower cost.

 

One may part with £150 for a copy of BS381C, as I have, and find substantial differences between the chips contained therein from one copy to another as well as differences between the chips and the tabulated colourspace coordinates printed in the book. To get useful comparisons, one must spend even more on larger matching cards from the BSI for the specific BS381C colour you are interested in - and even then I'd not hold my breath about it being a Delta E <2 of its own stated colour values.