Hendon Air Museum Hurricane

[Olmec Head]

Can I do the Hendon Air Museum Hurricane in its Battle of France scheme just before it came back to the UK to participate in the BOB?  

[Stew Dapple]

Hi Olmec,

 

Sorry, it's the Battle of Britain Group Build. Anything that flew in combat between 10th July and 31st October 1940 is fair game, otherwise, no. I appreciate it's a small difference in time, but if schemes from the Battle of France are accepted then where do we draw the line?

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Olmec Head said:

Can I do the Hendon Air Museum Hurricane in its Battle of France scheme just before it came back to the UK to participate in the BOB?  

AFAIK P2617 current appearance is a 'best guess'  to display the first set of markings worn, as P2617 ended up in Training Command,  at some in it's career getting a replacement propeller and tailwheel.

 

summary of P2617 history is here

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/72-A-1404-Hurricane-1-P2617.pdf

 

I was going to suggest looking into P2617 BoB appearance,  seems that it was not really used.

Quote

21 May 40 Squadron embarked for Dover.

22 May 40 Squadron re-assembled at Croydon.

29 May 40 Damaged and transferred to Rollasons, Croydon (M Goodman) as Cat B (Beyond Repair on site).

30 May 40 Flown at Croydon by Fg Off Irving - 15-minute afternoon flight -repairs presumably effected quickly.

9 & 10 Jun 40 Flight-tested by Sqn Ldr B A Hitchings (File Letter 16 Nov 1972).

11 Sep 40 Recorded in Log Book as having being flown on operational sortie by Flt Lt James Michael Bazin on operational sortie from RAF Tangmere, West Sussex. (Log Books at Tangmere Aviation Museum - see Flypast Aug 1988, P.30 and February 2000 p.99). His only flight in P2617.

26 Oct 40 Allotted to No.1 (Canadian) Squadron at Prestwick (Later No.401 Squadron). Flew patrols over Clyde Approaches.

20 Nov 40 15.45 Hours (Dusk) Flew patrol sortie, during which oil pressure failure forced the pilot, Fg Off Watson to make a wheels-up forced landing in a field near Saltcoats, Stevenston, Ayrshire having flown from Castletown, the squadron base.

21 Nov 40 To Gloster Aeroplane Co for overhaul and repair after the above accident.

 

if you could find details of this

11 Sep 40 Recorded in Log Book as having being flown on operational sortie by Flt Lt James Michael Bazin on operational sortie from RAF Tangmere, West Sussex.

 

then this could be a possible. 

 

HTH

[Olmec Head]

Thanks Gentlemen, firm but fair!  I did think about the A/C in a BoB finish for September, but I don't think it would have been AF - F at that time.  That squadron code was allocated to another aircraft in August 40 as shown on a google photo search for Hurricane AF-F, so I would doubt that P2617 retained AF-F in September.  Even the BoF AF-f coding is open to doubt from the Hendon Aircraft Museum history as detailed by Graham.

 

As a context, I was lucky to do the cockpit event at Hendon on the 75th BoB Anniversary and have always wanted to do the main three RAF fighters (Spitfire, Hurricane and Defiant -sort of)  in their original markings for each A/C serial number as depicted at the Museum before they dispersed the collection.  I have done Spitfire X4590 but not very well.  Perhaps I could do that again.

[Dave Charles]

Just to set the record straight on P2617.

 

It has been repainted several times during preservation.

 

The aircraft served with "B" flight on 607 squadron and is recorded as flying at least 3 times during the Battle of Britain period.

 

In captivity it has variously worn AF:T and AF:F which are not correct

 

In the archives at Hendon is the "A" Flight Authorisation book which was donated by Wing Commander Francis Blackadder.

 

In this document there is a record of P2617 being loaned to "A" Flight on the 16th July 1940 for a sortie that was cancelled.  The aircraft is confirmed as coded "M".

 

I have the logbooks of a number of 607 squadron pilots, including J M Bazin, who flew the aircraft operationally at both Usworth and Tangmere during the Battle of Britain

 

At the same time P2874 was AF:F and flown primarily by Francis Blackadder as "A" Flight Commander

 

Hopefully this clears thing up

Edited February 7, 2021 by Dave Charles
Additional Information

[Graham Boak]

From the modelling point of view, the open question is the underside colour.  As an aircraft in service in May, it would then be painted black and white.  In July it would have been officially repainted Sky, but we know that a number of different colours were seen in Fighter Command at this time, usually(?) bluer, because of a shortage of the specified paint.   I know of no statement that describes the underside colours of 607 Sq aircraft at this time.

 

There is an interesting hint in Paul Lucas's guide to this period, where 3 aircraft digs lead to the identification of a colour close to Eau-de-Nil.  All three of these aircraft belonged to squadrons based in the North-East in July.  These were around the Humber, so  a bit south, but perhaps...  Admittedly Eau-de-Nil was not a colour on the Air Ministry approved list of aircraft quality paints, so perhaps this was a local mix?

[Dave Charles]

I suspect that P2617 may well have been repainted at Rollasons, Croydon as it was one of 6 aircraft that made it back from France and were repaired and test flown in the second week of June 1940

[Graham Boak]

Could be, but isn't this a bit early for Sky?  It is worth remembering that even on its introduction it was permitted to keep existing aircraft in their existing schemes, so b&w undersides could be seen for a little time afterwards.  Not sure how long this lasted, but I suspect not for long.