Question: did PV-1 Ventura’s fly in a desert scheme finish?

[28ZComeback]

Ex I was wondering: did the USAAF or RAF employ a desert scheme on their PV-1 Ventura’s in North Africa?  Thank you 

Edited July 2, 2020 by 28ZComeback

[Wulfman]

AFAIK the Ventura was not used in North Africa, the RAF used it in bombing raids on Europe and for training. The USAAF used it mainly in a training role, and the US Navy used it in the Pacific area. The South African Airforce used it in the maritime patrol

role . It is very unlikely that the Ventura flew in the desert scheme.

 

Wulfman 

 

PS I await a shooting down !

 

 

[Work In Progress]

I have no references for Venturas in North Africa either. Plenty of Hudsons but no Venturas.

[Ed Russell]

A question for @tonyot - he is the Ventura expert!

 

[28ZComeback]

 Here is a RAF Ventura in Blida in North Africa July 1943. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by 28ZComeback

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    decals are available at hannants 

 

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/DKD72048

 

 

cheers

  jerry

Edited July 2, 2020 by brewerjerry

[dogsbody]

Something from Carl Vincent:

 

"  I fear that I can be of no help with this question, though I would be inclined to doubt that they did. However, simply as a matter of interest, the South African Air Force did use these aircraft in a somewhat more aggressive role than maritime patrol. I attach a photo which I got from a former Can/RAF pilot nearly 40 years ago. From July to November 1944 he was attached to 25 Squadron SAAF and flew 56 daylight bombing raids from Italy against targets in Yugoslavia. The photo shows some of the squadron’s Venturas returning from a raid. An examination of the image shows many interesting aspects of these aircraft. "

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

 

 

[Blimpyboy]

In Ron Belling's A portrait of military aviation in South Africa there is a section about SAAF PV-1s used in the Mediterranean theatre.

While the aircraft are not in any form of desert camouflage, they are in an attractive variant of the USN three-tone scheme.

 

It states (pp. 88-89):

"In common with Ventura GR Vs delivered to the RAF it had retained the standard three-tone US Navy scheme while serving with 17 Squadron. However, during the latter half of 1944, when 17 Squadron undertook night shipping reconnaissance and harbour strike duties, Black undersides were introduced. This attractive hybrid scheme can be related to Air Ministry Directive AMO (AL No 8 of October 1944, which prescribed Extra Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces with Black undersides for special coastal duties. Ultra-violet light had affected the upper surfaces: while the non-specular Sea Blue (FS 35042) fuselage decking had faded, the wings, tailplane and nacelles (also in Sea Blue, but conforming to FS 25042) had retained most of their original tone. The washed-out decking had the appearance of a different, paler colour. The Intermediate Blue (FS 35164) had faded slightly, while the hurriedly applied Black undersides peeled off in patches to reveal the original White".

and

"They had very faded top surfaces that appeared to be more Dark Sea Grey than Sea Blue or Intermediate Blue, and Black undersides".

 

This scheme is contained in Kits At War sheet K4/14:

 

 

Again, probably not in desert colours, but there are some good shots of SAAF Venturas just up from the bottom of this page (although some of them might not be in North Africa...):

http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.com/ian-sturgeon-photographs.php

 

This discussion also contains some information about Venturas in the Med: 

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Blimpyboy]

There are also USN aircraft operating out of Morocco (again, sadly not a desert-themed scheme):

 

 

And RAAF aircraft (contained in Red Roo decal sheet 72161)

Edited July 3, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Ed Russell]

17 minutes ago, Blimpyboy said:

And RAAF aircraft: (as done by Red Roo)

In our instructions we note that US colours may have been substituted for EDSG and  DSG which makes a different model.

 

https://www.redroomodels.com/product/red-roo-raaf-lockheed-ventura-conversion-mto-1943-1-72-scale/

 

Apart from Tony's example, as modelled above, we found no desert schemed Venturas.

[Blimpyboy]

12 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

34 minutes ago, Blimpyboy said:

 

In our instructions we note that US colours may have been substituted for EDSG and  DSG which makes a different model.

So added, thanks!

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Blimpyboy said:

(drawn from a Red Roo decal sheet - not sure of the number):

72161 - conversion (exhausts, intakes, a few details) and decals in 1/72

Also in 1/48 but temporarily out of stock.

[28ZComeback]

Thanks all!!  Much appreciated!! 

[28ZComeback]

4 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

In Ron Belling's A portrait of military aviation in South Africa there is a section about SAAF PV-1s used in the Mediterranean theatre.

While the aircraft are not in any form of desert camouflage, they are in an attractive variant of the USN three-tone scheme.

 

It states (pp. 88-89):

"In common with Ventura GR Vs delivered to the RAF it had retained the standard three-tone US Navy scheme while serving with 17 Squadron. However, during the latter half of 1944, when 17 Squadron undertook night shipping reconnaissance and harbour strike duties, Black undersides were introduced. This attractive hybrid scheme can be related to Air Ministry Directive AMO (AL No 8 of October 1944, which prescribed Extra Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces with Black undersides for special coastal duties. Ultra-violet light had affected the upper surfaces: while the non-specular Sea Blue (FS 35042) fuselage decking had faded, the wings, tailplane and nacelles (also in Sea Blue, but conforming to FS 25042) had retained most of their original tone. The washed-out decking had the appearance of a different, paler colour. The Intermediate Blue (FS 35164) had faded slightly, while the hurriedly applied Black undersides peeled off in patches to reveal the original White".

and

"They had very faded top surfaces that appeared to be more Dark Sea Grey than Sea Blue or Intermediate Blue, and Black undersides".

 

This scheme is contained in Kits At War sheet K4/14:

 

 

Again, probably not in desert colours, but there are some good shots of SAAF Venturas just up from the bottom of this page (although some of them might not be in North Africa...):

http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.com/ian-sturgeon-photographs.php

 

This discussion also contains some information about Venturas in the Med: 

 

I am really quite interested in the SAAF scheme with dark gray undersides. I searched the web for a photo without much luck. The decal sheet drawing looks a bit brighter than intermediate sea blue. I am thinking of the possibilities...but cannot imagine dark sea blue/ intermediate blue / dark grayish black. By total coincidence I was suffering through a foot injury, soaking in ice water and happened to be looking through an old mag tonight and came across a TBM of VT 90 “Batmen” in a scheme that appears identical to the SAAF scheme. What were the odds?  Thanks again!! 

Edited July 3, 2020 by 28ZComeback

[Blimpyboy]

Pictures of the three-colour SAAF aircraft from the Ron Belling book can be found here:

http://www.gfiartgallery.com/catalogues#lg=1&slide=77

and

http://www.gfiartgallery.com/catalogues#lg=1&slide=78

[Nachtwulf]

18 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Something from Carl Vincent:

 

"  I fear that I can be of no help with this question, though I would be inclined to doubt that they did. However, simply as a matter of interest, the South African Air Force did use these aircraft in a somewhat more aggressive role than maritime patrol. I attach a photo which I got from a former Can/RAF pilot nearly 40 years ago. From July to November 1944 he was attached to 25 Squadron SAAF and flew 56 daylight bombing raids from Italy against targets in Yugoslavia. The photo shows some of the squadron’s Venturas returning from a raid. An examination of the image shows many interesting aspects of these aircraft. "

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

 

 

Great photo!Looks like one of them is having landing gear issues. Thanks for sharing.

 I also notice that the intakes are different than anything I've seen on a Ventura before.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Nachtwulf

[MACALAIN]

I have also made one like Tonyot, in DE, Mid stone on top and black underside, with the DK decals set in 1/72

 

Best regard

 

Alain

[28ZComeback]

Thank you all!  Chris - this is an amazing shot. Any idea of the color scheme?  Fascinating that the USN stars are visible. I think this would make a great subject for a future project. 

[dogsbody]

Though I have seen that photo before Carl sent it to my yesterday, I have no clue as to colours, other than standard RAF colour.

 

Scroll about a quarter way down this page to see SAAF Venturas: http://saafww2pilots.yolasite.com/lawrie-shuttleworth-photographs.php

 

Almost at the bottom of this page: http://saafww2photographs.yolasite.com/george-moir.php

 

 

 

 

Chris

 

 

[Carl V]

1.            I am pleased that some of you found that SAAF Ventura photo of interest.

2.            I would say that the colour scheme is the standard delivery one of DE/DG/Sky which was common to all I and II’s. It appears to match existing black and white photos of early Venturas and there is no apparent need to alter it.

3.            The second and third aircraft appear to have been freshly repainted which makes sense as they were getting very long in the tooth by the time the photo was taken. As far as that rather scruffy example in the foreground is concerned my guess (and it is no more than that) is as follows. The SAAF received 87 aircraft from the original 300-aircraft contract for Venturas I and II. Of the second contract for 375 aircraft, 271 were taken over by the USAAF and were put into service as B-34’s though they saw little if any front-line service. However, most of them found their way back to the various Commonwealth air forces. In the case of the 60 ex-B-34’s that ended up in the RCAF, they were in very distinctly secondhand condition. 48 of these went to the SAAF. It seems likely that one of these is the foreground aircraft which has not yet had a chance to be totally repainted.

4.            Would the centre of the roundels be orange?

5.            One of the earlier posts contained a quote to the effect “In common with the GR V’s delivered to the RAF, it retained the standard three-tone US Navy scheme etc.” I cannot answer for the RAF, but certainly the GR V’s that served with the RCAF were delivered in both two-tone and three-tone USN colour schemes until eventually repainted in either EAC or WAC schemes.

6.            Did the other Commonwealth services retain the factory applied cartoons on the rear fuselage? The RCAF certainly did until the Venturas were repainted.

Carl Vincent

[tonyot]

Hiya Folks,..... funny to see some of my models and research on here,...... you don`t realise just how much it travels! 

Apart from the pair flon on Special Duties,.... I have found no other Ventura`s wearing desert colours,..... although there were Lodestar transports and ambulances wearing desert colours.

 

Quite a few Ventura GR.V`s based in North Africa had camouflage applied over the standard US Navy scheme,..... but this was a local version of the Temperate Sea Scheme,..... also applied to Marauder Mk.I`s and Baltimore`s amongst others and at least one UK based GR.V used for Met Recce duties wore it too,...... the artwork in Ed`s Red Roo instructions cover it well;

 

The photo showing the 25 Sqn SAAF Ventura`s is covered here in an old post of mine along with a few other Ventura schemes;

 

 

All the best

                  Tony

 

EDIT,..... Further to above,..... here are some desert schemed Lodestars;

 

And the USAAF had some RAF Hudson`s re directed to operate transport duties between N, African based depots,... some MAY have worn desert colours;

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by tonyot

[tonyot]

On 7/3/2020 at 6:19 AM, 28ZComeback said:

I am really quite interested in the SAAF scheme with dark gray undersides. I searched the web for a photo without much luck. The decal sheet drawing looks a bit brighter than intermediate sea blue. I am thinking of the possibilities...but cannot imagine dark sea blue/ intermediate blue / dark grayish black. By total coincidence I was suffering through a foot injury, soaking in ice water and happened to be looking through an old mag tonight and came across a TBM of VT 90 “Batmen” in a scheme that appears identical to the SAAF scheme. What were the odds?  Thanks again!! 

Here are two of Ron Belling`s wonderful paintings;

 

And here is one of the black bellied Ventura`s,...... the colour was applied mainly for night raids against Greek islands like Kos, looking for Axis shipping,..... note also the large anti glare exhaust covers;

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by tonyot

[dogsbody]

No pictures, Tony. Just pulsating grey rectangles. Very alienesque!

 

 

Wait! They are now visible! 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[28ZComeback]

Wow Thank you!!