BBC reporting Finnish Air Force dropping the historical use of the swastika

[JohnT]

Link:-

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53249645

[Truro Model Builder]

That DC-2 looks rather smart.

 

[Filbert_Wang]

Thanks for posting - really interesting, I had no idea the usage pre-dated the Nazi part in Germany

[Paul J]

What does that mean when dealing with historic aircraft in Finland? Will they still be able to wear the marking or changed to the post war  current marking??

[Tojo72]

Wow, they used it since 1918, never would have known that.thanks for the link

[gingerbob]

It is far more limited than our generalized headline implies- read the article.

[luis pacheco]

 

[Eric Mc]

The Finnish Air Force stopped using their blue Swastika as their main insignia immediately after World War 2. They retained some legacy Swastika motifs in their crests, badges etc. It's those final areas that are being tackled now.

 

The Latvian Air Force also used the Swastika as their main insignia. That ended in 1945 when Latvia s an independent country more or less ceased to exist.

 

Many organisations used the Swastika as a logo both before, during and after the Nazis adopted it as their insignia in the 1920s. There was a commercial laundry based in Dublin known as The Swastika Laundry which operated for decades and only closed down in the mid 1980s. It had rather suspicious looking red vans with a black Swastika on a white background.

[nheather]

On 7/1/2020 at 9:27 PM, JohnT said:

Link:-

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53249645

Breaking news - the Finnish swastika is nothing to do with Nazism and the Finland doesn’t really use it any more any way.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[JohnT]

2 hours ago, nheather said:

Breaking news - the Finnish swastika is nothing to do with Nazism and the Finland doesn’t really use it any more any way.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

I think the interest in the decision reflects modern attitudes. One might have thought that this emblem - which for centuries before the 1930’s had been a good omen and good luck symbol - would have been dropped in the immediate aftermath of WW2. 
 

I used to date a girl whose family had an antique salt and pepper set in silver from the Middle East and they carried the swastika emblem and were made long before WW1 far less when the symbol got hijacked later

[Blimpyboy]

34 minutes ago, JohnT said:

I think the interest in the decision reflects modern attitudes.

 

When you think about it, it is a rather esoteric emblem, especially for the Finns.

 

Most national markings tend to feature colours from the flag and/or coats of arms, and emblems based largely on historical - for that country - actions, heraldry or 'things'.

As far as I can tell, Finland's use of the swastika stems from a foreign nobleman's personally-adopted insignia, and doesn't seem to represent anything notably Finnish. Now, I can't speak for the historical and heraldic understanding held by Finns today, but I would think that maybe the Air Force just wants something more culturally Finnish and representative of the whole country, and not just a nobleman's adopted mark.

As Professor Teivainen said the Air Force's job "is to defend the nation - not to defend an old symbol given by a Swedish count in 1918".

 

It's also just way too easy for all of us today, to focus on the principal negative connotation associated with the Swastika (which I'm sure is also being taken into account by the Finns).

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[nheather]

11 hours ago, JohnT said:

I think the interest in the decision reflects modern attitudes. One might have thought that this emblem - which for centuries before the 1930’s had been a good omen and good luck symbol - would have been dropped in the immediate aftermath of WW2. 
 

I used to date a girl whose family had an antique salt and pepper set in silver from the Middle East and they carried the swastika emblem and were made long before WW1 far less when the symbol got hijacked later

I understand why it is an issue and I appreciate the general ignorance of general public.  I just thought the article by the BBC was another case of sensationalising.  We had the ‘clickbait’ title, Finnish Air Force drops Swastika as if this is is something that they have done in the last day or so, flood the article with pictures of WWII planes with Finnish swastikas.  But read the article and even the BBC concede with gritted teeth that aircraft haven’t carried the swastika since 1945 (so why all the misleading phots then) and that Finland have long been removing the Swastika and this is just the last remnant.  A non-story that some BBC journalist wanted to sensationalise.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel 

[Blimpyboy]

16 minutes ago, nheather said:

I just thought the article by the BBC was another case of sensationalising.

There’s probably a little of that too. In a period of time where various racial movements and tensions abound, it’s (almost) an easy win for journalists.

 

Race relations = tense.

Therefore, Swastika used by European country = good copy (even if only tangentially related).

[JohnT]

10 hours ago, nheather said:

I understand why it is an issue and I appreciate the general ignorance of general public.  I just thought the article by the BBC was another case of sensationalising.  

 

10 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

There’s probably a little of that too. In a period of time where various racial movements and tensions abound, it’s (almost) an easy win for journalists.

 

Race relations = tense.

Therefore, Swastika used by European country = good copy (even if only tangentially related).

Gentlemen I give you the final word in poetry from Humbert Wolfe

 

You cannot hope to bribe or twist 
(thank God!) the British journalist. 
But, seeing what the man will do 
unbribed, there's no occasion to.

[Giorgio N]

But are we really sure that the "Finnish" swastika has nothing to do with the nazi symbol ? In reality the two have a lot in common as they come from the same cultural background.

While the swastika may have been an ancient symbol, it was mostly ignored for centuries in the West until the late 1870's, when Schliemann excavated the ruins of what he though was the site of ancient Troy. There he found a large number of items carrying this decoration and the symbol suddenly became very popular across Europe. For many this was just a temporary fashion, however historians and other scholars developed the idea that the swastika was a symbol of the ancient Aryan race, from which many believed that northen europeans, and germanic people in particular, descended. The fact that similar symbols were also found in many areas of Northern Europe (albeit more rarely than many seem to think) gave even more credence to this view. The problem is that the whole "Aryanism" thing was the product of a school of thought that embraced racial superiority and promulgated the right of the superior race to rule the inferiors. For a few decades therefore, after the initial fad vanished, the swastika was not a sign of good luck from ancient peoples, it had become a sign of good luck of one ancient master race from which the germanic peoples descended. As such choosing a swastika was a sign of being part of that master race and the symbol became strongly linked to German and germanic nationalism.

Eric Von Rosen was sure well aware of these meanings and the theories on the Aryans and he was actually a strong supporter of racial superiority ideas. He had seen the swastika on some ancient viking rune and to him that was another proof of what was then a very common view in certain circles. When he chose it as his personal charm, he most likely did it as the symbol agreed well with his personal ideas. It is no surprise that later he became a figure in the Swedish nazi parties. He also became a relative of Goering when his wife's sister married te German aviator...

Hitler came to use the swastika through the same associations, it had long been a symbol of German nationalism and of the view that Germans were racially superior. It had been used by esoteric societies, WW1 aviators, freikorps units. Sure not for everyone it was a symbol of nationalism or race (I'm not into WW1 much but I seem to remember that one aviator using this symbol on a D.VII was actually Jewish), but it was a by then well established symbol in the German far right.

So Von Rosen's and Hitler's swastika are not the same by coincidence, they are the same because both men believed in similar ideas and the swastika was in their days an established symbol of their views.

 

From what I read in the past there is more to the Finnish use of the swastika than the Von Rosen association, as this symbol featured in late XIX Century paintings by artists with nationalist ideas and the symbol can be found in prehistoric sites over Finland, but I'll leave it to those with a better knowledge on the matter. But even if yes, the article is a bit more sensationalism than else and the Finnish roundel has replaced the swastika long ago, we should keep in mind from where their swastika came. Hitler didn't take the swastika from some ancient people on a whim, it had long been a different symbol in Europe. In the same way as nazism didn't happen by accident, it was the result of ideas with a history spanning several decades before Hitler started discussing politics in the bars of Munich. And Von Rosen was knee deep in these ideas

Edited July 6, 2020 by Giorgio N

[Paul Thompson]

46 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 WW1 aviators, freikorps units. Sure not for everyone it was a symbol of nationalism or race (I'm not into WW1 much but I seem to remember that one aviator using this symbol on a D.VII was actually Jewish),

Of the top of my head there were at the very least an Albatros D.III and a Fokker DrI, on the Central Powers side. But also used by some British, American and other Entente pilots, for the good luck connotation.

 

Paul.

[Black Knight]

The broken cross can be found on Christian burial markers in Ireland from the 6th century to 20th century.

I have photos of US Western leatherwork and guns, from the early 19th century to 20th century decorated with the broken cross, some work done by Native Americans, some by Spanish Mexicans and some by Europeans

 

[Alan P]

It seems to be surprising to some people that an ancient heraldic symbol or word might lose all its former associations when used in a more modern context that completely dominates its subsequent perception 🤔

 

Nobody in western culture (except historians or archaeologists, maybe) will ever give a stuff what the swastika meant before Nazism, because THE NAZIS. 

[Antti_K]

Hello guys,

 

I think that the media desperately wanted a scoop here in Finland as well. In fact the air force HQ decided to replace the small, brass, winged swastika on the epaulettes of HQ personnel. All squadrons and air force schools retain the swastika on their flags; at least for time being. I would say that the insignias on museum planes and tanks will remain unaltered. And I think that's the way things should be. Replacing our blue swastikas with something else won't change the history. Like the fact that Soviet Union attacked us twice without even a proclamation of war.

 

For us Finns the swastika was there long before anyone had even think that one day there will be a nazi party in Germany. It was a symbol connected with everything positive. In late 1800s swastika became visible to the general public with Art Nouveau. It was the time when Finland was still part of the Russian empire and when the Russian emperor decided to turn Finland into an integral part of Russian nation. A great movement was started by means of fine art, architecture, literature and music to show the world that Finland was part of the west and not part of Russia. It took still some 20 very difficult years until our nation was finally free and independent.

 

In early 1918 the civil war between the "whites" (government troops) and the "reds" (mainly factory workers and communists) was almost over when Swedish count Eric von Rosen donated an aircraft to the government troops. He had decorated the wings with his personal symbol -a medium blue swastika- before the aircraft was flown to Finland. Pretty soon the supreme commander of the government troops, General C.G.E. Mannerheim, ordered that the blue swastika on white background will be the national insignia of Finnish military aircraft.

 

I think the World has gone crazy with symbols and words. Everything can be explained either as good or bad when it is detached from its original context. Just a few weeks ago some researchers here in Finland published a pompous article that we Finns are responsible for colonialism as well, because we sold tar for the British ships. And actually what is now known as Finland was part of Sweden back then. And this happened just as the "storm" over a Russian revelation that Finnish army had murdered tens of thousands of Russian civilians in gas chambers during the war, had settled. The Soviets conducted a very thorough investigation just after the war and found no evidence of war crimes. I think that all those desperate explanations about the Finnish swastika having something to do with the nazi party fall in to that same category; nonsense.

 

I hope to see Finnish subjects here on BM; both war time and newer ones. So stay safe and keep on modelling:)

 

Cheers,

Antti