RAF Black and White Underside

[dogsbody]

I've got this:

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Blimpyboy]

On 6/28/2020 at 6:37 AM, Work In Progress said:

Neither. That's not how aeroplanes work. Leave them alone for colour. Where it is an an opening or moving part which is  likely to  denote a demarcation line in dirt and oiliness, e.g. a break in the cowlings or the radiator flap, depict that change by all means.. But don't colour in panel lines otherwise.

I find that some subjects lend themselves more to this than others - it depends on how I feel it would look ( or how bad my eyes are).

 

http://thecombatworkshop.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-word-about-finishing-your-model.html?m=1

[Work In Progress]

But we're not discussing some tatty old shed of a 20 year old airframe like those. He's building a nearly-new pre Battle of Britain Hurricane, of which the undersides (the specific subject of discussion) have been freshly painted within the last few weeks .

[nheather]

A question about the roundel on the black wing -  am I correct in thinking it should have a yellow outer ring, but the one on the white wing does not.  If that is the case I shall have to rule that out as it isn’t covered by the decals.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Blimpyboy]

2 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

of which the undersides (the specific subject of discussion) have been freshly painted within the last few weeks .

True. Still, fly anything for any amount of time and you will start to see things, even when freshly painted - especially piston jobs, where just a few days are enough for astonishing amounts of crud to accumulate!

Plus, airframe age means almost nothing, it’s the maintenance of the surface finish that matters most; just look at poorly-prepared (but brand new) Japanese aircraft at the end of WWII.

 

Like I (and the article) intimates, While there is a case-by-case objective reality for many modellers, modelling as a non-commercial hobby is largely subjective and up to the maker‘s desires.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Tail-Dragon]

This is how Tamiya's 'Nato Black' looks.  It is just greyish enough that you can still use true black to highlight control surfaces/flaps etc.

 

 

[nheather]

10 minutes ago, Tail-Dragon said:

This is how Tamiya's 'Nato Black' looks.  It is just greyish enough that you can still use true black to highlight control surfaces/flaps etc.

 

 

Very nice, I would be over the moon if I could achieve anything even close to that.

 

One potential spanner in the works is although my decal set calls out several black/white (or black/sky) schemes it does not include a roundel with a yellow outer ring for the black wing - bit of an oversight which pretty much rules out my preferred build option.  And before someone suggests it, I simply don’t have the ability nor the confidence to paint a yellow circle.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Tail-Dragon]

8 hours ago, nheather said:

A question about the roundel on the black wing -  am I correct in thinking it should have a yellow outer ring, but the one on the white wing does not.  If that is the case I shall have to rule that out as it isn’t covered by the decals.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

As far as the yellow ring goes, paint the wing section yellow, measure the size of the roundel decal, and using a compass or circle cutter, cut masking tape a couple of MM larger and apply in the roundel location, and then spray the wing black. After the wing is painted, apply the roundel decal carefully centered, and your done.

That is what I did for the above.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Tail-Dragon

[Graham Boak]

I don't have the ability either, but there ways around.  Finding an appropriately sized roundel with a yellow ring, and place it underneath is the most obvious, if not always attainable.  If you have a traditional pair of compasses there is an ink attachment  that can be filled with paint and hence be used to draw any size of (fairly thin) ring you can manage.  Or fitted with a knife blade to cut a ring out of yellow transfer sheet (though that never worked for me). - paint your yellow transfer sheet from spares or cut out of an existing yellow ring..  I do have a proper olde-worlde draughtman's set with pen attachment, which may be available fairly cheaply if in antique shops, but does take a bit of practice.  I suspect a more modern equivalent would allow yellow ink.  Buy a stencil sheet of holes and paint through the right one.  Or go 21st century and draw a yellow ring on a computer and print it our on blank transfer sheet.  I suspect the last approach may be the simplest to achieve and give the best results.

[nheather]

2 minutes ago, Tail-Dragon said:

As far as the yellow ring goes, paint the wing section yellow, measure the size of the roundel decal, and using a compass or circle cutter, cut masking tape a couple of MM larger and apply. After the wing is painted, apply the roundel decal carefully centered, and your done.

I get the technique I just don’t think I have ability to do that.  I’m not that experienced with airbrushing and masking.  I know what I should be doing but most of my attempts so far have resulted in ridges and bleeds but can sort of get away with it painting armour because the contrast is rarely so stark and you can hide all sorts with mud, weathering, wear and tear.

 

I fear a yellow circle on black would need to be so precise because any error would stick out a mile.  Besides I don’t have any masking film.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Graham Boak]

Just seen on another thread a device called an Olfa cutter, which does just what I described for a compass with a sharp blade, but perhaps more readily available in model sources.  

[Giorgio N]

Graham beat me to it.. th Olfa cutter is the answer: use it to cut a yellow backing circle from a sheet of solid yellow decal, apply in place and let set properly. Then apply the roundel over it and you're sorted. Of course there's the risk that if the white of your roundel is not opaque enough you may see some yellow showing through, but with good quality decals this should not happen. You can always use the same tool to cut a ring so that there's no yellow under the white, but applying this will be harder than applying a disk

The problem with the Olfa cutter is that it can't cut circles with a diameter below around a inch. I have modified mine slightly to get down to around 10 mm (simply by removing some plastic from the part that holds the blade) but this size should be enough for your project. Solid yellow decal can be found from Fantasy Printshop or Tauromodel.

 

Regarding the paint finish, IMHO most flat paints do not represent well the finish of real matt paints as used on aircraft. My favourite finish is Vallejo Satin, that is not really satin but is a flat clear coat with just a hint of sheen. Similar finishes can be achieved by mixing matt and gloss clear paints to the degree of shininess desired.

[nheather]

27 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Just seen on another thread a device called an Olfa cutter, which does just what I described for a compass with a sharp blade, but perhaps more readily available in model sources.  

Hi,

 

I am trying to keep costs down - I don’t want to turn this is into buying £20 of extra stuff so I can build a kit I picked up for a tenner.  I don’t normally do aircraft, this Hurricane is simply a one-off I have in my stash.  So I don’t have a spares box of unused transfers, nor some of the tools of the trade that most aircraft modellers might have (as a military vehicle modeller I might have stuff that aircraft modellers don’t have).

 

I do have a circle cutter

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Olfa-Compass-Cutter-cutting-circles/dp/B000BK7NWC/ref=sr_1_11?adgrpid=50758209102&dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwoub3BRC6ARIsABGhnyYnQ9r0rWJlty7R2yJOSHzCa_DuG5HLxDbselJa43xLeaXQOCyOR4UaApa2EALw_wcB&hvadid=259064359660&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=1006810&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=798689164679177687&hvtargid=kwd-295650614602&hydadcr=28146_1821036&keywords=olfa+cutter&qid=1593420592&sr=8-11&tag=googhydr-21

 

I bought it for cutting roundels for radio control planes - it is fine with this big stuff, but my experience is that it is not so great with small circles.

 

What is yellow decal sheet?

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

 

 

[Giorgio N]

11 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

I find that some subjects lend themselves more to this than others - it depends on how I feel it would look ( or how bad my eyes are).

 

http://thecombatworkshop.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-word-about-finishing-your-model.html?m=1

 

While the author focused his attention on finishes that are known to show dirt better than others (guess that in the end he had to prove his point...), the article is great at proving that in the end there is no set rules for everything when it comes to this aspect. And confirms something I always say when it comes to weathering, panel lines and so on: there is no absolute truth ! There is no "aircraft don't get dirty this way" and no "herks never had time to keep the finish clean". There is only a very wide range of options depending on type, user, situation, age of the aircraft, type of paint, operational theatre, maintenance practices and so on and so on and so on..

 

[nheather]

I suspect I will abandon the idea of doing a black/white wing - it is getting overly complicated.  But disappointed with Sky Models to be honest, their documentation shows a list of Hurricanes that depicted with the decal which is impressive until you realise that three of them are not possible.  I know modellers will say “there is always a way” but if I am buy a specific decal sheet I don’t have to go and buy extra stuff to do work arounds just to make the decal set work.

 

Probably going to do one of the all Sky variants, which is a shame but I’m not up for the extra cost and effort needed to create the correct roundel, especially as I would probably make a right hash of it.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Giorgio N]

If you go the yellow solid decal way, you wouldn't really have invest that much: you already have the Olfa cutter, you would just need the decal sheet ( a fiver at Fantasy Printshop). Solid decals sheets can be useful in many situations, it's the kind of expense you do for a single model and then ends covering many others in the future

The Olfa cutter can cut a decal circle very neatly with no problem, I've done this before several time, and a 1/48 Hurricane roundel is well above the minimum size that can be cut.

 

Regarding Sky Model decal sheets, they are known for this kind of things: lot of options but often sloppy research. I have several of their sheets and most suffer from accuracy issues on relatively simple items like roundels or titles.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Giorgio N

[nheather]

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

If you go the yellow solid decal way, you wouldn't really have invest that much: you already have the Olfa cutter, you would just need the decal sheet ( a fiver at Fantasy Printshop). Solid decals sheets can be useful in many situations, it's the kind of expense you do for a single model and then ends covering many others in the future

The Olfa cutter can cut a decal circle very neatly with no problem, I've done this before several time, and a 1/48 Hurricane roundel is well above the minimum size that can be cut.

 

Regarding Sky Model decal sheets, they are known for this kind of things: lot of options but often sloppy research. I have several of their sheets and most suffer from accuracy issues on relatively simple items like roundels or titles.

Point taken. But this was meant to be a cheap bit of fun.  I have a Tropical Hurricane that I acquired for a tenner, don’t normally do aircraft stuff.  Don’t like the supplied decal options so have bought a second hand sheet for a fiver.  Yellow decal is £6 including delivery.  So whilst neither the decals or the yellow sheet are expensive, together they would cost more than the kit which was meant to be a bit of fun, certainly not for competition entry and that I’d probably make a hash of anyway.

 

So much as I fancy the black/white scheme I’m not going to spend another £6 on decal paper that I’ll never use again.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[Graham Boak]

Are none of the unwanted roundels on the sheet large enough to give you enough surface to paint yellow and then cut out with your Olfa cutter?  If so, no expenditure is necessary.

[alt-92]

6 minutes ago, nheather said:

Point taken. But this was meant to be a cheap bit of fun.

Your model, your rules   I can understand it if a/c are not your normal 'diet' so to speak.

Us aircraft nuts are perfectly willing to wait for weeks to get the 'right' thing, or expend energy & money in reaching the desired result.
We probably wouldn't go to the same lengths for more unfamiliar territory  

[nheather]

38 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Are none of the unwanted roundels on the sheet large enough to give you enough surface to paint yellow and then cut out with your Olfa cutter?  If so, no expenditure is necessary.

That has crossed my mind.  On the Sky Models decal set - no.  The roundels that are large enough go on the fuselage sides.  The others with yellow outers are much smaller.

 

But I haven’t looked at the decals that come with the Airfix kit, maybe one of those might work.

 

Just looked, the Airfix decals will be too small - BUT I’ve just noticed that the black/white schemes use the small yellow edged roundels on the fuselage sides leaving the big ones free.  The large underside roundels look about the same size but it may be that the large yellow edged roundels are a smidge bigger.  I won’t know until the decals arrive - but that may be what Sky Models have in mind.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

[mhaselden]

14 hours ago, nheather said:

A question about the roundel on the black wing -  am I correct in thinking it should have a yellow outer ring, but the one on the white wing does not.  If that is the case I shall have to rule that out as it isn’t covered by the decals.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel

If you're talking about the early Battle of France markings, then usually they did not have the yellow surround.  The later Black/Sky scheme (after the BoB) did have a yellow surround for the roundel on the port underwing position.

[Tail-Dragon]

If I might advocate for masking and painting the yellow ring once more, it's really not that hard. You already have the same Olfa circle cutter that I use, and all I used was the wide Tamiya masking tape. I put the tape (two overlapping strips, if necessary)  on an old piece of plastic (I use a 1 foot square of Lexan for cutting tape, but almost anything will do). push the pin on the Olfa cutter into the tape/plastic to make a shallow divet, and cut your circle. Lift a corner of the tape with an Xacto blade and use tweezers to peel the circle up, and position on the yellow painted wing. Now, the secret - burnish the edges down completely with the rounded wooden end of a paint brush handle so there is no leaking under. Just mist the first couple of paint passes over the area (sealing the edges) and finish the painting. It's real easy, using what you already have - note, don't spray towards the tape edge, that's what gives you ridges, spray from the center of the circle outwards. The result is a sharp crisp ring that looks like a decal.

 

Hers the same technique on a Hurricane trop, you can just do a solid disc of yellow, you don't have to do a ring as I did.

 

 

 

(the overspray on the bottom of the ring is on purpose, the real aircraft had that)

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Tail-Dragon

[Work In Progress]

Perfect example, nicely done

[nheather]

My decals arrived today and I think I can see what Sky Models intends with the yellow ring.

 

It comes with two yellow-ringed fuselage roundels, large and small.

 

The large one is only used on one of the options which has an all Sky underside, all other options use the smaller fuselage roundel.

 

This means the larger roundel can be used on the black wing.  It is 26mm in diameter and the normal red/white/blue roundel is 24mm.  So used together will result in a 1mm outer yellow ring.

 

Cheers,

 

Nigel