Fury colours

[RODH2]

I just acquired a 1/48 Airfix Fury and was thinking of going with the 43 Sqn, chequerboard  scheme. Now I'm sure this has been covered before, (sorry) and the Internet can be "interesting", but :- white background for the chequerboard, or bare metal, yes or no........?!

[Black Knight]

White.

The squadron colours are White & Black checks

 

edit; see all below. just ignore me. I'm only here for the beer

[mhaselden]

It's an interesting question.  Most contemporary photos I've seen appear to show just black checks with the silver dope showing instead of white checks:

 

 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, RODH2 said:

I just acquired a 1/48 Airfix Fury and was thinking of going with the 43 Sqn, chequerboard  scheme. Now I'm sure this has been covered before, (sorry) and the Internet can be "interesting", but :- white background for the chequerboard, or bare metal, yes or no........?!

Depends on the boxing , the original boxing had black and white decals, the last red boxing had just black, but were for a current " warbird" scheme.

 

In response to @mhaselden, the photo shows no checks on the tail planes, so there maybe variations?

 

I'd need to do some digging.  I'll put a @John Aero in as he'd know.

[RODH2]

Thank you! That is hard to argue with, great pic! The Airfix decals provide the chequered elevators and tail, of the Sqn. Leaders a/c, and no white background, so the Jury is still out, though the bells are ringing! (And thank you, Troy Smith, just noted!)

Edited June 27, 2020 by RODH2
New post.

[mhaselden]

TBH, the only pics of Furies I can find with white on the checkerboard are modern restorations.  Every contemporary 1930s photo I could find online showed aluminium dope where the white portion of the checkerboard would be.  

[John Aero]

I agree with @mhaselden that 43 Sqn Fury aircraft seem to lack the White squares on all the photos I've looked at. This in it's self is unusual in that the Siskins and Gamecocks, both previously flown by the Sqn did have white squares.

 

John 

[dogsbody]

In the upper left corner:

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Tripod]

The cover of the August 1971 issue of Airfix Magazine features a painting of a 43 Sqn Fury 2. My father's reaction to the picture was (a) The white squares weren't white and (b) The took (or left) the wheel spats off. He was one of the 43 Sqn fitters who had to paint camouflage all over their lovely silver biplanes at the time of the Munich crisis. He never forgave Hitler for that.

 

Peter

[mackem01]

@Tripod, that's a great piece of family history. Fantastic conversation piece!

[Tripod]

Thank you. Sadly I was only 18 when he died, or I;m sure I'd have a lot more. For instance, when I built the original Airfix Blenheim he said that he painted the central bar of 'his' Blenheim black, so it could be identified on approach. Teenaged me didn't realise the value of the oral history I was being told and ask for more detail. 

 

Peter

[Britman]

I know just how you feel Peter. My dad was mine of information and I still have questions that I know he would be able to impart some information of his time.

 

Keith

[RAS]

I have an ancient copy of Camouflage and Markings Number 5 Gladiator, Gauntlet, Fury and Demon which cost 6 bob or 30np when it was published.

According to page 115 “43 Squadron based at Tangmere, Sussex with Number 1 Squadron had the distinctive Black and White checkerboard markings.

When the Fury’s were first delivered in 1931, the Black squares were only painted on the Aluminium finish, but eventually the White squares were added.

On the fuselage the rectangle of Black and White squares was positioned forward of the roundel, and on the upper surfaces of the wing a long rectangle of similarly coloured squares was painted between the roundels.

The Squadron Commander had the entire fin area painted Black and White, and the flight commanders aircraft had their fins painted in flight colours.

The wheel discs were also painted in the respective flight colours.

Although photographs of 43 Squadron Furies taken in 1936 and 1937 do not seen to exist, it appears almost certain that the Squadron crest was painted on the fin inside the standard ‘spearhead’ on many aircraft. “

I have built three of these nice Airfix Fury’s but chickened out so two are Camouflaged and one is Trainer Yellow.

[mhaselden]

Finally managed to find a single contemporaneous image of a 43 Sqn Fury that might (stress might) show an airframe with white checks added.  The pic appears in the MMP Orange Series book No.8105 on the Hawker Fury and Nimrod.  The photo shows Fury K3731 with a coloured fin, probably depicting a flight commander's airframe. 

 

The image is captioned as showing the presence of white checks but the evidence is pretty scant.  There are 3 personnel standing in front of the markings with only one "white" square fully in view.  That single square certainly does look different when compared to the aluminium dope of the fuselage.  However, the other partial "white" squares look rather more like aluminium dope showing through.  The checks on the upper wing show no discernible difference between the "white" checks and the aluminium dope, although the latter is in full sunlight and so has a very bright appearance.  

 

I'm far from convinced on that single piece of evidence.  I'd like to see a better quality version of the image or, better yet, a single clear image showing white checks on a 1930s vintage airframe.   

[Vulcanicity]

I'd concur in that I have also searched for ages and never found a convincing image showing white, as opposed to aluminium dope/natural metal in the non-black checks.

Intrigued by Mhaselden's image - unfortunately I don't have that book. One day, perhaps the required evidence will appear?

[dogsbody]

It would be nice if he could scan that image and post it here.

 

 

 

Chris

[mhaselden]

Sorry, folks, but I'm wary of copyright laws and so won't be scanning any images from the MMP book.  

[europapete]

Well, just checked my copy ( page 3, first photo in the book!) and the fuselage squares look white to me, matching much better with the portion of roundel white that can be seen than the silver. On the top wing, more difficult due to bright sun, but to my eye there appears to be a slight difference between the wing and square, with the wing being slightly more "grey" looking. Regards, Pete in RI

[mhaselden]

There's another pic of K3731 on this website.  It's a "pay for the pic" site so the images aren't particularly large or clear but it appears to show K3731 without white checks.  It still has the coloured fin of a flight commander, although this one has the 43 Sqn pennant marking on the fin which isn't present on the MMP image.  The latter detail is interesting because it begs the question which image is earlier?  Logically, the image with the pennant is later, unless the fin in the MMP image was overpainted/recovered, thus removing the pennant from display.  

 

It seems the only evidence that 43 Sqn Hawker Fury airframes had white checks are the few written references to it in various publications, although no source is provided for the information.  Given the relatively large number of photos of the Fury, I would expect there to be at least one good, clear shot showing the white checks.  That fact that we're poring over one, rather poor-quality, image published in the MMP and coming up with differing interpretations doesn't, to me, connote solid evidence one way or another.  

 

As things stand, I'm inclined to propose that the 43 Sqn airframes didn't have white checks.  There are just too many photos that clearly show the aluminium dope and none (MMP excepted) that show white checks.  

[RODH2]

Appreciating the discussion here, thanks, and am leaning towards no white checks, much less on the C/O's aircraft  (K1930), with chequered fin and tail-plane, of which I haven't seen a photograph!

[europapete]

Yep, 'tis a difficult topic for sure. The easy way out is to model a 'plane that has photo's that clearly show silver squares, of which many abound. Regards, Pete in RI.

[mhaselden]

44 minutes ago, europapete said:

Yep, 'tis a difficult topic for sure. The easy way out is to model a 'plane that has photo's that clearly show silver squares, of which many abound. Regards, Pete in RI.

 

I tend to agree, Pete.  The overwhelming photographic evidence points in that direction.  I should note that my first impression of the MMP image was of white checks but the more I looked at the image, the less convinced I became.  While the one fully-visible check does appear to be white, the others are far less clear and could easily be silver dope.  The 3 personnel in front of the fuselage ally don't help - they could be causing all sorts of unusual shadows which alter our perception of the image.  

[Peter Rozendal]

According to the TEXT in the book On Silver Wings by Alec Lumsden and Owen Thetford (page 156) "Markings: Black squares in a checkerboard pattern against the aluminium dope finish...", "By 1937, the standard fighter spearhead surrounded the squadron badge on the fin." This is a book that has collected various articles from Aeroplane monthly. I don't know the dates of the original articles, the book is from 1993.

The photo's in this book seem to support no white squares, but all are from pretty far away.

 

Peter

 

[dogsbody]

12 minutes ago, Peter Rozendal said:

According to the TEXT in the book On Silver Wings by Alec Lumsden and Owen Thetford (page 156) "Markings: Black squares in a checkerboard pattern against the aluminium dope finish...", "By 1937, the standard fighter spearhead surrounded the squadron badge on the fin." This is a book that has collected various articles from Aeroplane monthly. I don't know the dates of the original articles, the book is from 1993.

The photo's in this book seem to support no white squares, but all are from pretty far away.

 

Peter

 

 

Dang! I forgot I had that book tucked away in what passes as my reference library.

 

 

Chris

[europapete]

got that one too, a really nice book.