1/72 Spitfire Mk. XII

[72modeler]

3 hours ago, The Wooksta! said:

You're partially right, but given that they already have a Vc out, all they need do is one sprue for the fuselage and other bits (two fuselage halves, 2 tailwheel doors, tailwheel, spinner, prop, backplate, 2 exhausts, rudder, intake, tailplanes), about a dozen parts.  Not a lot to do.

They don't even have to do that. If Airfix released another boxing of their eagerly awaited. but as of yet not released Mk Vc, all they would need is a new sprue with the Griffon cowling, prop, spinner, larger chord, pointed rudder, narrow cannon blisters, insert for the retractable tail wheel bay, and a new tail wheel strut, and you can do a Mk XII from either batch of airframes. Doubt they would do this, as they have so far not been inclined to release a "special limited" edition kit like Hasegawa likes to do with their existing molds- for insane bucks, I might add! , (Airfix already has their 1/48 XII that they could pantograph down to make the extra parts sprue needed.) You engineer the cowling part to replace their Mk Vc cowling at the firewall, just like the factory did, and you also eliminate the bad part of the Airfix XII fuselage that I have read about in reviews and here on BM. Me- I'm sitting patiently on my Paragon XII conversion to be married to one of my Eduard Mk VIII week end edition kits, but I would love to see a dedicated state of the art kit,  don't get me wrong, but I do have the conversion set just in case. As the capable modelers here on BM have elucidated, (Like that word, @Martian?) there are several ways to get to a Mk XII from existing kits and bits.

 

@Graham Boak can check me on this, but according to the Allied Fighters monograph on the Mk XII, they were built in two batches, all coming from Mk V contracts but built as other versions. The first batch of 55 aircraft ,N221 to EN627, had fixed tailwheels, and the second batch of 45 aircraft, MB794 to MB882, had retractable tailwheels; all had the pointed, larger chord rudder, 'boat: fairing antenna on  the lower rear fuselage. rod antenna under the RH wing, and no nav lights on the wingtips.

 

Fer cryin' out loud, if Valom can do a Twin Pin. Wellesley, and  a Harrow, it's a  bleedin' shame that a mainstream kit maker can't do a Mk XII and Seafire XV, especially as I can't think of another single engined fighter that has been on more modelers' want lists for so many years as the beautiful Mk XII- I mean, if Jeffery Quill said it was the bee's knees, then what else do you need? Sorry for the extended  rant, and I'm even on the wrong side of the pond to be ranting and raving about a Mk XII, but if my comments in previous discussions on this topic aren't any indication, it's my favorite Spitfire. Keep 'em flying! 

 

(I will now take myself to the naughty corner and sit with @corsaircorp until I feel better!)

Mike

 

BTW, Why would new tailplanes be needed? IIRC none of the XII's had the extended horn balanced elevators, did they?

[gingerbob]

7 hours ago, alt-92 said:

...met the same end as many a diver did at the hands of a Mk.XII

 

51 1/2 V-1 claims, according to "Diver Diver Diver".  More than I'd have guessed, but not all that many compared to the competition.  But then, there was only one squadron flying them at the time.

Edited June 26, 2020 by gingerbob
Needless repetition. Needless repetition.

[Graham Boak]

Strictly the Mk.XII did not have a Mk.V rear fuselage but a new one with structural changes.  I believe this included flush riveting, but also that this was carried forward into the Mk.VIII.  Given that most model companies do not distinguish between a Mk.IX (ie Mk.V) rear fuselage and a Mk.VIII,  it seems reasonable that Airfix wouldn't need to bother either.  However, I still think that the amount of changes, to which you have added wings without nav lights and additional aerials, make the actual changes required for a new kit from the Mk.Vc much more significant than you seem to accept.  As described in post #22, plus the goodies that you've added.  This is of course assuming that the current sprue layout is suitable for this kind of substitution of an entire sprue.  Basically, an entire aircraft minus undercarriage and cockpit interiors.

 

Valom can do the Twin Pin etc because a short run kit producer can make money from a short production run, and so can afford to consider and even produce types that no mainstream producer could.  The penalty the modeller pays is a higher price.   The Mk.XII falls into this category.  It would be nice to see an Airfix Mk.XII, but if you think that would be quick and easy for them you are kidding yourself.  It would be a new Spitfire kit, for a variant of limited production, limited variety, and limited fame.  Try selling that to the non-enthusiast directors of a company in deep financial do-do.

 

Try selling it to Arma Hobby?

[opus999]

Wow, the big problem with being on the west coast of the US is all the stuff that happens when I'm asleep!  My email box was full! Ask a question and all h*ll breaks loose.  

 

I feel like I need to apologize for re-asking a question that has been asked before.  At lunch yesterday I was reading about mk. VI's, VII's and XII's and the thread that Troy referred me to was one I was already reading, but was thinking it was about the VII.  So, you kind folks have provided some good information that you already provided a couple years ago.  Thank you! 

 

I've only gotten through about 4 pages of the other thread, and haven't started going through this one yet -- the trails of having 10 hour work shifts and 3 busy boys.

[opus999]

15 hours ago, The Wooksta! said:

I did have a more involved recipe,

Even more involved?   Seriously though, this is impressive.  I'm glad to see there's a part for the blister atop the cowl too.

 

14 hours ago, Cookenbacher said:

which is a bummer since all other CMR Spitfire marks are known for their accuracy.

 

Just my luck that the one I really want to build is the inaccurate one. 

 

11 hours ago, Planebuilder62 said:

you can make your own judgement of the Brigade set.

I'm no Spitfire expert... this looks really nice.  "Looks the part" as they say. I'd be happy with it. 

 

7 hours ago, Bonhoff said:

the magneto bump

Is that what that is on top of the cowl?  I've never been able to figure out what that was (albeit, I've only searched half-heartedly).  Your Mk. XII looks nice!

 

7 hours ago, Bonhoff said:

Ventura late Seafire XV using the Eduard broad chord rudder, Airfix circular oil cooler, trimming the wingtips and scratching the magneto bump.

So, I've done several Eduard Mk. IX's, which means the rudder won't be a problem. The oil cooler would be a challenge.  When you trimmed the wings, did you use tips from an Eduard kit?  On the magneto bump, did you mold it from something, or cut a part off of something else? I'm also curious about the "Denavalizing" -- I read what @Troy Smith had to say about removing fish plates and such and frankly, I've not gotten to learning about seafires yet, so that's all greek to me.  Do you have an WIP for your Mk. XII build?

 

7 hours ago, The Wooksta! said:

It's not the basis I'd recommend

Uh oh... The Ventura Seafire is not accurate?  I'd be curious to know more.

 

 

[opus999]

57 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

deep financial do-do.

Is Airfix in trouble? I confess I don't have time to keep up on that kind of news.  It seems a shame... My take on the new Airfix is that at best they are a good value (I loved the F-86, Typhoon and P-40B) and at worst is doing the hobby a disservice with lack of attention to detail (the Bf-109G-6 was a joy to put together, but terribly inaccurate)

[opus999]

A couple thoughts about the Searfire XV route.  First are decals.  I've got plenty of roundels and fin flashes. Looks like the squadron codes are available as decals, and if that doesn't work out, they would straightforward, but challenging to make stencils for.  The decals I am having a hard time finding, though, are the serial numbers.  I'll have to look at the spares from my many Eduard builds to see if I can cobble the right ones together.  If anyone knows who might make a sheet of them... all I can seem to find is "Post War" serial numbers.  

 

Secondly, my reference book says that the Seafire XV has "... the Mk. IX's wing root fuel tanks...".  So, my question is:  Is that what accounts for the blisters on the wing roots, just forward of the canopy?  I've seen those on the Mk. IX and some later marks, but not on the VIII.  In fact, Eduard has you put in a small piece along the wing root that either does or does not have this bump depending on if you are making an VIII or a IX.  I gather the Seafire XV would have these bumps as well and that they would need to be removed to make an accurate XII.

[FinnAndersen]

Having built a brace of XII, my favourite route was the old OOP Paragon nose, coupled to a Eduard early IX with the round oil cooler off a Vc. It can't be done any more as my copy mould of the Paragon nose has worn out. I'd probably go the Seafire route if I would make yet another.

 

A very nasty surprise was that there are no generic squadron codes for e.g. EB-B, they are either too large or too small, so I have made masks for this using my Silhouette cutter.

 

HTH

 

Finn 

 

Edit: I'm making serial number using my computer printer and some printable blank decal sheets. There is a RAF "Font" that you can use for this. That way, it's not difficult.

[Planebuilder62]

The Brigade conversion comes with its own set of special sized codes on the decal sheet.

 

regards Toby

[JWM]

Many years ago I did the Sword Mk XII. This was a not very good short run kit.  Here are photos (in some later posts along with scratch conversion of Mk 21 done from Academy Mk XIV

Scalamates says that in 1/48 the kit by SH (an leater Revell) exists! I am 1/72 devoted so I do not trace if it is true or not.

https://www.scalemates.com/pl/kits/special-hobby-sh48107-supermarine-spitfire-mkxii--182507

as well as in 1/72

https://www.scalemates.com/cs/kits/xtrakit-xk72006-supermarine-spitfire-mkxii--137920

 

 

Regards

J-W

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by JWM

[alt-92]

1 hour ago, JWM said:

Scalamates says that in 1/48 the kit by SH (an leater Revell) exists! I am 1/72 devoted so I do not trace if it is true or not.

https://www.scalemates.com/pl/kits/special-hobby-sh48107-supermarine-spitfire-mkxii--182507

Recently reboxed and available as a special edition.

 

 

1 hour ago, JWM said:

as well as in 1/72

https://www.scalemates.com/cs/kits/xtrakit-xk72006-supermarine-spitfire-mkxii--137920

 

Hard to find, wasn't that a limited run pressed by MPM for Xtrakit/Big-H?

[72modeler]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

if you think that would be quick and easy for them you are kidding yourself. 

Graham, I will have to respectfully disagree with your comment. If Airfix wanted to do a 1/72 Mk XII as a stand alone kit, they already have the C wings tooled up, which gives them the wings, radiator, oil cooler, and 20mm cannon. Depending on how they mold the wings, which nobody has seen yet, you can sand off the large cannon blisters if they come molded on the upper wing, or substitute the narrow blisters off of another kit if they give the large ones (either type) as separate parts. Don't understand your comment re the nav lights, as they aren't included on any clipped wing Spits for the most part, and if they are, you just paint over them as they were flush with the wing tip on the clipped wing versions. The rudder might be attached and it might be separate, but either way there are numerous alternatives out there. The only re-engineering, per se, would be the Griffon cowling, prop, spinner, and exhausts. The Vc had the same radiator and oil cooler, IIRC. Everything else in the upcoming Vc kit would be the same as the Mk XII, and I personally don't care if the fuselage is a flush-riveted Mk V, Mk VIII, or as riveted Mk V- I can fix that. (Cutting a Vc fuselage at the firewall to attach a 'short' Griffon cowling would be easier than some people who have sectioned the front, rear, and upper fuselag, or moved the wing and/or re-profiled the trailing edge  to get an accurate Mk1 or Mk V from a Tamiya kit that I have read about some modelers doing here on BM.)

Mike

 

Limited production and fame? They did a Belvedere and DH 88. Easy? They did filleted and non-filleted Mustangs, I'm just saying, if they wanted to kill two birds with one stone, or in this case, an extra sprue, they could do a modified Vc  as a XII. It's a relatively simple and cost-effective procedure to reduce a 1/48 kit into 1/72- Tamiya must think so, as look how many of their 1/48 kits they have re-engineered as 1/72 kits. A Mk XII is not an Me-209- it's a very famous, highly-regarded, and popular version of the Spitfire that served an important purpose until the Mk XIV arrived that has been sought after by modelers all over.

 

Probably won't make a bit of difference where a new-tool XII is concerned;  none of us  have any way of knowing what the mindset is at the "new" Airfix," and I certainly do not have the reference library or vast knowledge of the Spitfire that you possess, but I figure I'm entitled to  an opinion. I admit I'm very enamored with the XII, and would love  to see a kit that does it justice released; if not, no biggie; I know how to make one.

[Giorgio N]

24 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Graham, I will have to respectfully disagree with your comment. If Airfix wanted to do a 1/72 Mk XII as a stand alone kit, they already have the C wings tooled up, which gives them the wings, radiator, oil cooler, and 20mm cannon. Depending on how they mold the wings, which nobody has seen yet, you can sand off the large cannon blisters if they come molded on the upper wing, or substitute the narrow blisters off of another kit if they give the large ones (either type) as separate parts. Don't understand your comment re the nav lights, as they aren't included on any clipped wing Spits for the most part, and if they are, you just paint over them as they were flush with the wing tip on the clipped wing versions. The rudder might be attached and it might be separate, but either way there are numerous alternatives out there. The only re-engineering, per se, would be the Griffon cowling, prop, spinner, and exhausts. The Vc had the same radiator and oil cooler, IIRC. Everything else in the upcoming Vc kit would be the same as the Mk XII, and I personally don't care if the fuselage is a flush-riveted Mk V, Mk VIII, or as riveted Mk V- I can fix that. (Cutting a Vc fuselage at the firewall to attach a 'short' Griffon cowling would be easier than some people who have sectioned the front, rear, and upper fuselag, or moved the wing and/or re-profiled the trailing edge  to get an accurate Mk1 or Mk V from a Tamiya kit that I have read about some modelers doing here on BM.)

Mike

 

Limited production and fame? They did a Belvedere and DH 88. Easy? They did filleted and non-filleted Mustangs, I'm just saying, if they wanted to kill two birds with one stone, or in this case, an extra sprue, they could do a modified Vc  as a XII. It's a relatively simple and cost-effective procedure to reduce a 1/48 kit into 1/72- Tamiya must think so, as look how many of their 1/48 kits they have re-engineered as 1/72 kits. A Mk XII is not an Me-209- it's a very famous, highly-regarded, and popular version of the Spitfire that served an important purpose until the Mk XIV arrived that has been sought after by modelers all over.

 

Probably won't make a bit of difference where a new-tool XII is concerned;  none of us  have any way of knowing what the mindset is at the "new" Airfix," and I certainly do not have the reference library or vast knowledge of the Spitfire that you possess, but I figure I'm entitled to  an opinion. I admit I'm very enamored with the XII, and would love  to see a kit that does it justice released; if not, no biggie; I know how to make one.

 

They did a Belvedere and a DH.88 many, many years ago when the number of kits sold per year was higher than today and competition was smaller. And these were not different version of something already existing in the catalogue, so aimed at capturing those who wanted... a  Belvedere (back then a brand new RAF helicopter) and a DH.88.

Tooling a new Spitfire however is a different story as it's only part of the market that wants that certain variant of the Spitfire, while the rest of the market just wants "A Spitfire", whatever the variant. Airfix from this point of view has already done a lot in offering a number of Spitfire variants, but all of them are much better known than the Mk.XII.

The XII may be interesting to us enthusiasts but it's not really a popular version for the general public. It was built in relatively small numbers, only served with two units (make it three...) and none is present on the airshow circuit or in museums. As such rates well behind the "big classics" (Mk.I, V and IX) and also behind those later variants that every kid can see today at airshows (XIV, XIX) or museums (22, 24). There's a reason why til now there's been no mainstream kit of the Mk.XII.

 

Regarding the reduction of a 1/48 kits to 1/72, it is not simple at all as the mould for the smaller "brother" will require a totally different design. What can be reused are of course all the information on dimensions and details and a number of parts can be based on the larger scale kit, but in the end it's still a brand new mould.

 

As for an Airfix XII based on their upcoming Vc, not going to happen. The sprues are visible on the Airfix website and there's no way the kit could be turned into a Mk.XII by adding a new sprue with fuselage and propeller. That kit is a Mk.Vc with broad gun covers and this is what will get.

Of course this kit may be a good basis for a Mk.XII for us enterprising modellers and we may also hope for some aftermarket company to offer a conversion

[Work In Progress]

50 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

They did a Belvedere and DH 88

47 years and 62 years ago respectively, and whan Airfix was still an actual company of its own rather than a handful of people employed by Hornby. We might as well try to divine the best future investment decisions of Boeing based on how North American did with the F-86

[opus999]

3 hours ago, JWM said:

Scalamates says that in 1/48 the kit by SH (an leater Revell) exists! I am 1/72 devoted so I do not trace if it is true or not.

https://www.scalemates.com/pl/kits/special-hobby-sh48107-supermarine-spitfire-mkxii--182507

as well as in 1/72

https://www.scalemates.com/cs/kits/xtrakit-xk72006-supermarine-spitfire-mkxii--137920

I've seen that there is a 1/72 Xtrakit, but it seems pretty hard to find now.  I believe it was a short run kit and was produced in 2007 or 2008.  According to a review I read, it was made by Sword.

[72modeler]

5 minutes ago, opus999 said:

I've seen that there is a 1/72 Xtrakit,

I have one, and it was a big disappointment, but they got the size of the codes right. I can't get anybody round here to buy it from me. From the glossy nature  and hardness of the plastic, it does look like  Sword did it. On mine, the cross sections of the two fuselage halves at the front didn't match and weren't even symmetrical. It would have been less work to take one of my resin Airwaves/DB Griffon engine cowlings, shorten it for the Griffon II or IV used on the XII, and put it on a Vc kit.

Mike

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

5 hours ago, 72modeler said:

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[FinnAndersen]

5 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I have one, and it was a big disappointment, but they got the size of the codes right. I can't get anybody round here to buy it from me. From the glossy nature  and hardness of the plastic, it does look like  Sword did it. On mine, the cross sections of the two fuselage halves at the front didn't match and weren't even symmetrical. It would have been less work to take one of my resin Airwaves/DB Griffon engine cowlings, shorten it for the Griffon II or IV used on the XII, and put it on a Vc kit.

Mike

I started one and had the exact same experience with the fuselage. IMHO it's not worth the effort to fix it. Go with a better Griffon nose and a better donor kit.

 

/Finn

[Chuck1945]

I built one of the Xtrakit XIIs and had no real issues as I recall. In fact I have another buried somewhere in the stash. Also built the XII back in the 80s using the Aeroclub vac with some Airfix Vb parts

[Beard]

11 hours ago, opus999 said:

The decals I am having a hard time finding, though, are the serial numbers. 

Ventura do various sizes and colours of serials:

http://www.venturapublications.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=67

[stevehnz]

Several years ago I did a XII conversion from a Jays reboxed Ventura Early Seafire XV (A-frame hook) , it came out rather well even if I do say so myself.  Jays still carry this kit.

Steve.

[Bonhoff]

17 hours ago, opus999 said:

Your Mk. XII looks nice! Do you have an WIP for your Mk. XII build?

Thanks!

 

Afraid not - Normally only do a WIP for any group build subjects, the Ventura Seafire is a short run kit with massive sprue gates so there's quite a lot of preparation needed although the fit was good. 

 

Parts that were replaced out of the original kit were the exhausts which were rather crude, spares were taken out of a Special Hobby kit and the undercarriage was replaced by the "wings up" option ones that Airfix provide with a bit of trimming. Installing the oil cooler necessitated filling the location of the port radiator under the wing. The wingtips were simply cut down and re- profiled. The magneto hump was fabricated from a piece of thick styrene and sanded to profile.

 

Oh! And a pilot.

 

IanJ 

[John Thompson]

So far, no one's mentioned the Merlin Spitfire XII - why is that, I wonder? Those who did remember it probably just ran away screaming, I suppose.  I once tried to convert one to a Seafire XV, but I'm okay now. Or so my doctors say. Hahahahahahahahahhhaaaaa...

 

John

[Bonhoff]

14 minutes ago, John Thompson said:

So far, no one's mentioned the Merlin Spitfire XII - why is that, I wonder?

You've probably given some on here flashbacks....

[Planebuilder62]

There`s a Brigade 1/72 XII for sale on ebayuk at the moment.

 

regards Toby