RCAF P-40 colours question

[brewerjerry]

Hi All, 

          on the linked webpage is a great ( to me ) photo part way down of 9  P-40's, a havard and a hampden at penticton airfield june 42

 

http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warplanes-3-the-second-world-war-curtiss-p40-kittyhawk_711.html

 

As the P-40's have the early style roundel and fin flash 

 

Am i correct in assuming dark earth/dark green ( US paints ) as camo  ? 

  and sky spinners apart from one, which appears to me black ? 

 

cheers

 jerry 

 

 

 

[airjiml2]

Correct.  US equivalents of Dark Green/Dark Earth over Sky.

 

Jim

[Clifton]

2 hours ago, airjiml2 said:

Correct.  US equivalents of Dark Green/Dark Earth over Sky.

 

Jim

DuPont colors, I’m thinking?

[LDSModeller]

1 hour ago, Clifton said:

DuPont colors, I’m thinking?

Most Likely

 

The RNZAF also received P40E-1's (Mk 1a in RAF parlance) in the RAF ET Serial series

as mentioned the the Link above

NZ3012 - ET604

RNZAF Museum Official (used with appropriate Permissions)

 

RNZAF held Documents show that the Aircraft arrived in DuPont Colours including

the National Insignia

Regards

 

Alan

 

[Etiennedup]

Jerry,

 

It looks like this to my eye.

 

 

From the Rudy Arnold collection here  http://edan.si.edu/slideshow/viewer/?eadrefid=NASM.XXXX.0356_ref1255

Edited June 24, 2020 by Etiennedup
Photo origin included.

[airjiml2]

11 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

The RNZAF also received P40E-1's (Mk 1a in RAF parlance) in the RAF ET Serial series

as mentioned the the Link above

NZ3012 - ET604

 

RNZAF held Documents show that the Aircraft arrived in DuPont Colours including

the National Insignia

Regards

 

Alan

 

Alan,

 

Interesting that they arrived with National Insignia.  It appears the ET aircraft in Canada came with decals.  (RCAF Photo)

 

Jim

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by airjiml2

[LDSModeller]

50 minutes ago, airjiml2 said:

Interesting that they arrived with National Insignia.  It appears the ET aircraft in Canada came with decals.

Hi Jim,

 

Just checked, RNZAF received P40E-1's in the RAF EV Serial series also, and they

certainly had painted Roundels.

Not sure as to why some P40E-1's had painted Roundels and others Decals.

During WWII the RNZAF in New Zealand/SW Pacific was attached to the US Navy,

I also learned over the past weekend that in Washington DC, during WWII, there was

a Allied Joint Chiefs for US/Commonwealth Lend Lease, which as I understand it all

Lend Lease decisions were made, Who/What/how went where.

It's possible the RNZAF requested painted Roundels over Decals? - Will have to investigate more.

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Scott Hemsley]

_Jerry...

 

_{I've just about completed a 111 Sqn. (RCAF) Kittyhawk I as it appeared when the squadron was deployed to assist the US in Alaska, in 1942.  For the DuPont paints (by some accounts - exclusive to Curtiss and Bell), I followed the advice of people like Dana Bell and used the following:}

 

_{DG  - FS34097 (Forest Green)}

_{DE - lightened RAF Dk. Earth (to the point where it resembles RAF Lt. Earth)}

and the undersurface … Duck Egg Blue. 

 

Dana waffled between Sky Grey and Duck Egg Blue, but two things made me go with the latter.  Even in B&W photos, there is a very slight, but noticeable distinction between the Sky fuselage band and the undersurface colour.  That difference would be far more obvious with a darker colour like Sky Grey.  Perhaps the one point that clinched it was the discussions I had with Carl Vincent during his research efforts, where he mentions that when talking to former RCAF Kittyhawk pilots, they described the colour as a pale blue-ish colour  - definitely not Sky Grey.

 

As for the spinner colours, Sky was the default colour.  There were no black spinners (as suggested by the OP), but sometime late in 1943, each WAC (Western Air Command) Kittyhawk squadron had their own assigned spinner colour, that extended in some cases, to individual flights, as in the case of 135 Sqn. (either blue or red).  132 Sqn. had white spinners.  

 

Scott

Edited June 25, 2020 by Scott Hemsley

[Shark444]

Interesting in this photo from the Harald Skaarup collection as well.  Looks to be as though the insignia yellow outer band on the roundels have been painted out.  Also interesting is the upper wing roundels appear to be the same Type 1A roundel similarly painted out on the outer band.  Anyone have some insight into this practice?

 

[Clifton]

21 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

Hi Jim,

 

Just checked, RNZAF received P40E-1's in the RAF EV Serial series also, and they

certainly had painted Roundels.

Not sure as to why some P40E-1's had painted Roundels and others Decals.

During WWII the RNZAF in New Zealand/SW Pacific was attached to the US Navy,

I also learned over the past weekend that in Washington DC, during WWII, there was

a Allied Joint Chiefs for US/Commonwealth Lend Lease, which as I understand it all

Lend Lease decisions were made, Who/What/how went where.

It's possible the RNZAF requested painted Roundels over Decals? - Will have to investigate more.

 

Regards

 

Alan

I seem to remember from one of those Squadron books on the P-40, that when Curtiss would crate P-40s for shipment, they would include roundel decals in the crate.  I wonder if they simply ran out at one point?

Edited June 25, 2020 by Clifton

[busnproplinerfan]

23 hours ago, Etiennedup said:

Jerry,

 

It looks like this to my eye.

 

 

From the Rudy Arnold collection here  http://edan.si.edu/slideshow/viewer/?eadrefid=NASM.XXXX.0356_ref1255

Just noticed in this picture, the bottom of the side roundel is covered by the wing fairing. The plane looks to new or recently painted with a replaced part. Just looking to, the brown on the cowling has a fuzzy edge and the rest where it meets the bottom colour looks fairly sharp.

[Scott Hemsley]

Shark444...

 

What you see in that photo of a 111 Sqn. Kittyhawk I, is the modifications done to the nat'l markings in Anchorage Alaska in 1942, when they were part of the RCAF's contribution to the Aleutian campaign, to fight the Japanese in Alaska.   While in Alaska, the RCAF squadrons that were deployed there, served under US command. 

 

You're correct in that the yellow surround of the fuselage roundels, were painted out and the upper wing roundels were modified as you see in the photo. However, the markings were returned to normal once the squadron returned back to Canada in '43.  You'll also notice that the squadron codes (LZ) have been painted out as well.  This was a directive, not from the American command, but the RCAF, early '43.

 

Scott

Edited June 25, 2020 by Scott Hemsley

[LDSModeller]

4 hours ago, Clifton said:

I seem to remember from one of those Squadron books on the P-40, that when Curtiss would crate P-40s for shipment, they would include roundel decals in the crate.  I wonder if they simply ran out at one point?

I have in my documents from the RNZAF Museum, a copy of some

P40E un-crating instructions, The pictures of the aircraft, have the roundels

applied.

As far as running out - I would tend more to the thinking that it simply became

(from a Manufacturing/Cost point of view) more expeditious to paint the Roundels

as opposed to manufacturing the Decals. The likes of Brewster had previously painted

the Roundels on their exports to the RAF (given that was pre lend lease)

After the battle of Britain had been fought and won, the likes of Hugh Dowding along

with Technical Teams from Britain went to the US, and worked with US Aircraft manufacturers

to help them develop better production methods.

Regards

 

Alan

[brewerjerry]

Hi All, 

          Many thanks for all the info and replies, most helpful 😀

     cheers

         jerry

[Shark444]

On 6/25/2020 at 2:43 PM, Scott Hemsley said:

Shark444...

 

What you see in that photo of a 111 Sqn. Kittyhawk I, is the modifications done to the nat'l markings in Anchorage Alaska in 1942, when they were part of the RCAF's contribution to the Aleutian campaign, to fight the Japanese in Alaska.   While in Alaska, the RCAF squadrons that were deployed there, served under US command. 

 

You're correct in that the yellow surround of the fuselage roundels, were painted out and the upper wing roundels were modified as you see in the photo. However, the markings were returned to normal once the squadron returned back to Canada in '43.  You'll also notice that the squadron codes (LZ) have been painted out as well.  This was a directive, not from the American command, but the RCAF, early '43.

 

Scott

@Scott Hemsley was the Thunderbird totem marking on the nose a squadron marking or specific to the pilot?

[Scott Hemsley]

Shark444 ...

 

Neither, really.  According to an article in an old issue of Random Thoughts (IPMS/Canada's mag) by Carl Vincent, the Saanich Indians adopted the unit on Mar. 17/42, presenting it with a Thunderbird totem.   "In the mythology of the West Coast Indians, the Thunderbird caused havoc and death to those who saw it" (from 426 Squadron History).   Apparently several aircraft wore this emblem in some fashion or other … but the only other one I've seen depicted in drawings or photos, is AK905 - LZ*D.  Although the totem on that aircraft was carried on the cowl in the same place as LZ*V, it was a much smaller version than the one carried by aircraft.   Until the squadron deployed overseas, they were known as the "Thunderbirds". 

 

Once in England, the story changed.  426 Sqn. was formed overseas in Oct.42 and when 111 (F) Sqn. went overseas as 440 Sqn. in Feb.'44, they relinquished the name to 426 Sqn. and never adopted another one.  However, in Dec.'44, 440 Sqn. was adopted by the City of Ottawa, but no other nickname was attributed to the squadron.   In the case of 426 Squadron … they  carry the nickname 'Thunderbirds" to this day. and the totem features prominently on their squadron's official heraldic crest. (which was approved by His Majesty, King George VI, Oct.15, 44).

 

In a shameless plug, I've recently posted a RFI for LV*Z.

 

Scott

Edited June 27, 2020 by Scott Hemsley

[Beazer]

 

 

 

Here is my 403rd Tomahawk Mk.I which had the sky prop and fuselage band as a reference for the colour shift.  The DuPont colours referenced as Curtiss Grey, Green etc.

This is early in the war so the kittyhawks would have been painted over and changed for the Aleutians from my understanding.  The picture posted definitely doesn't seem to be either the Curtiss Grey or the Sky Type S colour so I would agree to go with Duck Egg Blue especially in the shadow it seems more pale blue on the wheel fairings.

 

I used Vallejo's USAF Brown Fs30219 and USAF Green FS34092 which I like but think the colours freshly painted should be a little darker.

 

 

 

[airjiml2]

Beazer,

 

I really like how your upper surface colours turned out on the Tomahawk.

 

Jim

[dogsbody]

This just in, direct from Carl Vincent:

 

1.   The RCAF’s 111 (Fighter) Squadron was given the title Thunderbird Squadron when, in March 1941, it was adopted by the Saanich nation and presented with a small Thunderbird totem to mark the event. This totem is visible in the first photo and the accompanying zoom.

 

 2.            To the best of my knowledge only two of the squadron’s Kittyhawks were painted with the marking. My impression (and it is no more than that) is that it was to mark a photo op when a National Film Board photographer visited the squadron at Anchorage, Alaska in September 1942. These two aircraft are featured in a well-known series of aerial photos taken of a three-plane formation. (Incidentally, a horrible cut-and-pasted montage showing five of these aircraft exists but must not be taken seriously.        ) The two aircraft are AL194 LZ.V and AK905 LZ..D, the former with a large representation of the Thunderbird and the latter a smaller one.

 

3.            The last photo has a number of points of interest. It shows the former AK905, now renumbered RCAF serial 1052 which dates the photo as having been taken sometime after mid-May, 1943. However, it is obvious that the erk tasked with repainting the serial got the last two digits bass-ackwards and  painted 1025 which was a Fleet Finch. I was interested to see the blast tube on the ground, simply because one of these structures was mentioned in some research I was doing in which the blast tube of an RCAF Kittyhawk worked loose causing the wing to inflate and pop some rivets.

 

4.            I do not wish to sound overly pedantic but these aircraft were Kittyhawk I’s, never P-40’s of any description.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

[Beazer]

Those are great phots.  I've got the Italeri P-40 E with all the ultracast fixins to do the Aleutian P-40's.  Might have to put that on the To Do list for next year lol.

[brewerjerry]

Hi All

         I have been browsing a few old references

 

   one aircam p-40 book has a photo of ET611 captioned as in canada in standard desert camo colours and credited to RCAF photo

 

 

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Osprey-Aircam-Aviation-Series/06-Curtiss-Kittyhawk/06-Curtiss-Kittyhawk_Page_46-960

 

 

 

  and a colour plate of rcaf 729 in the same scheme 

 

  any thoughts ? 

     cheers 

        jerry

   

Edited October 28, 2020 by brewerjerry

[Carl V]

Hi, Jerry:

1.            In answer to your request for thoughts on those ancient Aircam references, here are mine.

2.            That photo of Kittyhawk Ia in flight was from a block of photos in the RCAF official PL series taken in North Africa. The aircraft had no connection whatsoever with Canada as far as I know, it certainly did not end up as one of the 12 RCAF Kittyhawk Ia’s and the caption made no implications to any Canadian connection. I suspect that the photographer just could not resist the temptation to make such an excellent image. Unfortunately, the Aircam gang simply jumped to the conclusion that the sands of Egypt were the snows of Canada and that myth has been applied to this photo on occasion ever since.

3.            The colour profile showing the same scheme as applied to RCAF Kittyhawk Ia 729 is a misinterpretation of the colours applied to that aircraft in a photo taken either very late war or very early postwar. The colours are not as shown but in the green/grey/light grey scheme that was applied to an increasing number of RCAF Kittyhawks during the late war. As far as I can tell, this scheme was initiated in 132 (F) in late 1943 and on 729 it might have been applied by this unit before 729 was passed on to 133 (F) when its first owners were disbanded in September 1944.

4.            I am still working hard on the third of the three volumes of my RCAF Tomahawk/Kittyhawk history. I would welcome any correspondence etc. from anybody out there on the subject.

Carl

[brewerjerry]

Hi Carl

             Many thanks for the detailed reply, i thought the schemes looked a bit odd, hoping someone who knew would reply with the info

 

  I must look out for your books

 

    cheers

      jerry

[Gordon Parker]

Hi Carl,

Great news on your Kittyhawk books, Something I have been waiting for since the publication of your Blackburn Shark and Liberator and Fortress books! I have spoken with the very good folks at Aviaeology and understand the Tomahawk book is likely the first volume. Is there any timeline for publication during the current apocalypse?

 

Further, I have found a colour image online of the Green/Grey scheme for a wartime or early postwar RCAF Kittyhawk at Sea Island,  I am currently building 729, Vancouver IX in the Grey/Green over light grey. I have seen a slide of an RCAF Kittyhawk with a very definite sky blue underside, but have been unable to track down the source.

I always thought the desert scheme for Home War Establishment aircraft was suspect.

All the best,

Gordon Parker?

[dogsbody]

1 hour ago, Gordon Parker said:

Hi Carl,

Great news on your Kittyhawk books, Something I have been waiting for since the publication of your Blackburn Shark and Liberator and Fortress books! I have spoken with the very good folks at Aviaeology and understand the Tomahawk book is likely the first volume. Is there any timeline for publication during the current apocalypse?

 

Further, I have found a colour image online of the Green/Grey scheme for a wartime or early postwar RCAF Kittyhawk at Sea Island,  I am currently building 729, Vancouver IX in the Grey/Green over light grey. I have seen a slide of an RCAF Kittyhawk with a very definite sky blue underside, but have been unable to track down the source.

I always thought the desert scheme for Home War Establishment aircraft was suspect.

All the best,

Gordon Parker?

 

I, too, have those two books and i'm eagerly waiting for the publication of Carl's Curtiss fighters.

 

 

 

 

Chris