Has Testors Dullcote changed?

[opus999]

I have used dullcote for as long as I can remember with no issues at all.  Tonight, I was dull coating my model (decanted into my airbrush) and my can ran out halfway through.  I opened a new can I got last weekend at the LHS and decanted it into my airbrush.  Right off the bat, it turned a horrible white color, pretty much ruining the wing of my model.

 

 

The wing on the left was sprayed with the old can and the wing on the right with the new can.  This picture was taken after I sanded for a while with 6000 grit paper, so it looks marginally better, but I think it's a goner. Which sucks because I had a hard time finding those decals.

 

So, a few questions:

 

1) Does anyone know if dullcote changed their formula?

2) What is a good replacement? (it helps if I actually look at the forum... )

3) Does anyone have any tips for getting out of this disaster besides sanding?

 

In terms of a replacement, I have only used Testors Acryl dull, which I thought was terrible.  It made everything a slightly milky white.  Besides, I read somewhere that Testors was not making paint anymore?  Or maybe it was just Model Master?  At any rate, I don't now if I'd be able to get the Acryl dull coat anyway.  I've seen a recipe for some sort of Tamiya clear and Tamiya flattening agent, but that seems kind of dicey to me to have to mix stuff every time.  Seems like too much could go wrong.

 

I could try to sand the dull cote off, but I'm afraid of ruining the decals, which I have no replacements for.

 

If nothing else, this can at least be a warning to everyone to  be on the lookout for bad dullcote!

 

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by opus999
remove one question.

[John Laidlaw]

I can't really help regarding the frosting, other than to say that it might be trapped moisture - maybe leave it for 24-48 hours and see if anything changes. I'm sure someone else who knows better than me can help, though.

 

As for replacements, I've found Winsor & Newton Galeria Matt Varnish to be very good. It's an acrylic, can be airbrushed when thinned (with isopropyl alcohol or water), brushes well, and dries very matt.

[opus999]

23 minutes ago, John Laidlaw said:

I can't really help regarding the frosting, other than to say that it might be trapped moisture - maybe leave it for 24-48 hours and see if anything changes. I'm sure someone else who knows better than me can help, though.

Hmm.  Good idea... however, I "hot swapped" one can for the other and the old can didn't frost up.  Unless maybe it's trapped moisture in the new can?

 

My wife wondered if there was a chemical reaction between the two cans because there was a little bit of the old stuff in the airbrush cup when I put the new stuff in.  But that would still be from the new can having a different formula.

 

25 minutes ago, John Laidlaw said:

As for replacements, I've found Winsor & Newton Galeria Matt Varnish to be very good. It's an acrylic, can be airbrushed when thinned (with isopropyl alcohol or water), brushes well, and dries very matt.

My wife has Winsor & Newton oil paints, so I'd be willing to bet I could find that in my local hobby store. Do you airbrush it, handpaint it or both?

 

Thanks for the ideas!

[John Laidlaw]

24 minutes ago, opus999 said:

Hmm.  Good idea... however, I "hot swapped" one can for the other and the old can didn't frost up.  Unless maybe it's trapped moisture in the new can?

 

My wife wondered if there was a chemical reaction between the two cans because there was a little bit of the old stuff in the airbrush cup when I put the new stuff in.  But that would still be from the new can having a different formula.

 

My wife has Winsor & Newton oil paints, so I'd be willing to bet I could find that in my local hobby store. Do you airbrush it, handpaint it or both?

 

Thanks for the ideas!

The new can may have been the culprit - it doesn’t sound like anything you did. And yes, there could have been a reaction if there has been a change.

 

You should be able to find it, but if not, dickblick.com usually have it. I’ve both sprayed and brush-painted it, and it works well both ways. For models, spraying is probably best, as you’ll get a thinner film that way.

 

Good luck! Hope it all works out and that you can save the markings.

[bmwh548]

To me it looks like a huge amount of flattening agent. Sometimes I get something very similar when I'm spraying a mix that's too thick or dries mid air. I spray neat Leveling thinner (lacquer thinner works too) and it bounces back. If you go for it practice on something first, it's very easy to flood the surface.

As a replacement I highly recommend GX113 from Mr. Color. It's pretty thick in the bottle, I think you can get 3 times the amount after you thin it enough for airbrush use. It dries dead flat, no whiteness. Since you're using decanted rattle cans I'm guessing smell isn't an issue. It doesn't really work for hand brushing though (maybe it would with a few drops of their retarder, but haven't tried that).

[opus999]

After my last post last night, I had an idea to remove the dull cote.  I wanted to act fast because I had a feeling that it would best come off before it cured.  Plus, I felt that I didn't have much to lose.  I took odorless mineral spirits and a Q-tip and was able to remove all of the dull cote from the one wing without damaging the decals. So it was a win!

 

The odorless mineral spirits seem to be a fairly weak solvent, because I can clean enamel paint off brushes with it, but it won't touch lacquer paint on brushes. My other reasoning was that Mr. Mark decal solvent might be the same or even a little stronger solvent, so at worst the decals would soften.  That meant I needed to proceed carefully to make sure the decals didn't get smudged.  The dullcote seems to be a pretty weak lacquer since I've sprayed it on every type of paint and decal since the 80's without issue, so I figured that it might be possible to remove with mineral spirits before it cured.  I know it takes a couple hours to cure because if I try to go over panel lines too soon after spraying it is still soft, even though it feels dry.

 

So I might have managed to yank this one from the jaws of defeat.   We'll see.

[opus999]

7 hours ago, bmwh548 said:

To me it looks like a huge amount of flattening agent. Sometimes I get something very similar when I'm spraying a mix that's too thick or dries mid air. I spray neat Leveling thinner (lacquer thinner works too) and it bounces back. If you go for it practice on something first, it's very easy to flood the surface.

As a replacement I highly recommend GX113 from Mr. Color. It's pretty thick in the bottle, I think you can get 3 times the amount after you thin it enough for airbrush use. It dries dead flat, no whiteness. Since you're using decanted rattle cans I'm guessing smell isn't an issue. It doesn't really work for hand brushing though (maybe it would with a few drops of their retarder, but haven't tried that).

Yeah, I guess it could've been too much flattening agent.  When I examined it with a magnifying glass, it didn't look like it had attacked the gloss coat (which I confirmed after I removed the dullcote). I think I will try your leveling thinner trick on a paint mule too see what happens.

 

Also, thanks for the Mr. Color recommendation!  I love Mr. Color paints, even if they can be a bit hard to get every now and then here in the US.  My pre-decal gloss coat is Alclad's Aqua Gloss, which is an acrylic.  Do you know if it is compatible with acrylics (e.g. Future)?

 

Thanks for the info!

[opus999]

10 hours ago, John Laidlaw said:

You should be able to find it, but if not, dickblick.com usually have it. I’ve both sprayed and brush-painted it, and it works well both ways. For models, spraying is probably best, as you’ll get a thinner film that way.

 

Good luck! Hope it all works out and that you can save the markings.

Thanks for the link.  The model-oriented hobby shop in my town is open, but wouldn't have Winsor & Newton products; Hobby Lobby has Winsor & Newton, but they are still closed.  Luckily I was able to save the markings.  Nothing like a good thrill at the workbench. :P

[bmwh548]

4 minutes ago, opus999 said:

Also, thanks for the Mr. Color recommendation!  I love Mr. Color paints, even if they can be a bit hard to get every now and then here in the US.  My pre-decal gloss coat is Alclad's Aqua Gloss, which is an acrylic.  Do you know if it is compatible with acrylics (e.g. Future)?

 

Thanks for the info!

 

Are you asking me if you can use Mr. Color GX113 over acrylics? The answer is yes. I've used it in thin coats over acrylics, enamels and lacquers with no issues. Just as with everything else make sure the previous layer is fully dry.

[John Laidlaw]

Excellent news on the markings - very glad to hear it!

[opus999]

Just now, bmwh548 said:

 

Are you asking me if you can use Mr. Color GX113 over acrylics? The answer is yes. I've used it in thin coats over acrylics, enamels and lacquers with no issues. Just as with everything else make sure the previous layer is fully dry.

Oh, man -- I was writing stream-of-consciousness, so now I see how that was a confusing question.  You interpreted it correctly; I was wondering about the compatibility of Mr. Color over Aqua Gloss.  Thanks!

[bmwh548]

I haven't used it over Alclad's Aqua gloss, but I've tried it over other water based paints and didn't have any issues.

[opus999]

I received some Mr. Color GX113 in the mail last weekend and got around to testing it on Alclad's Aqua Gloss.  First, I painted 3 coats of Aqua Gloss on a paint mule and let it cure over night and during the work day (instructions say to let cure for 6 hours). Then, last night as a "quickie" test, I hand brushed a couple small patches straight out of the bottle onto the Aqua Gloss.  First I really glopped it on, figuring if nothing bad happened I wouldn't have to do any other tests.  I saw it attack the Aqua Gloss a little bit in a couple of spots.  Nothing terrible, but bad enough to do further testing.  I then hand brushed a thin coat on a different spot with no damage.  Today, I loaded it into my paint brush cutting it 2:1 with Mr. Leveling Paint  thinner.  I sprayed it on the aqua gloss as a light mist and fairly heavy in a couple of spots, but nothing out of the ordinary.  As near as I could tell, it didn't attack the Aqua Gloss.  Of course as it dries it is difficult to see if there is any crazing or wrinkling in the paint, so I got out my powerful air brush inspection magnifying glass and went over it to see if I could see any damage.  I'm happy to say that I couldn't find any.

 

I did discover that flat coats look alarmingly bad under a powerful magnifying glass!  I also looked at models I'd finished with Dullcote and Testors Acryl dull for comparison and they all look bad that close. Which is kind of the point, isn't it?  They look rough and rough is one way to get a flat appearance.

 

But, from a normal viewing distance my test look pretty good.  It is amazingly flat -- maybe the flattest finish I've ever gotten.  So thank you @bmwh548 for pointing me in that direction!  I also plan to test the Windsor and Newton flat varnish as I see that come up quite often on this site.

[opus999]

Oh yeah... tried the Dullcote again on the paint mule.  Still terrible.  Clearly that can is hosed... and maybe dullcote in general. I'd have to get another can to be sure and I don't know if I want to throw money away, even if it is a couple of bucks.

[bmwh548]

Glad to have helped. Happy modelling!