RAF - "Night Glasses"

[11bravo]

Just read an interesting post over on LSP.  In it, they have the after action report of an RAF Mosquito night fighter crew who shot down an Me-110 in late 1944.   The crew mentions that they clearly ID'd the target using "night glasses".    I've seen reference to these things before but am unclear if we are talking about hand held binoculars optimized for low light conditions (which I honestly think would be worthless in an application like this) or some sort of fixed, IR device.  

 

Any information would be greatly appreciated. 

[FatFlyHalf]

One idle thought - nothing more - but it could be a bit of dis-information for the press to pick up and publicise.

A ruse to confuse ?

[11bravo]

Just now, FatFlyHalf said:

One idle thought - nothing more - but it could be a bit of dis-information for the press to pick up and publicise.

A ruse to confuse ?

I would think not, since it's included in the official RAF action report which would not be disseminated to the press. 

[AltcarBoB]

RAF bombers had Ultra Violet identification marker lights. Perhaps that has something to do with it. A lack of the UV lights means it's a target.

[Potato Pete]

I recall Jimmy Rawnsley in Nighter Fighter referring to using them whilst trying to weed out Luftwaffe intruders from returning Bomber Command aircraft. I don't have my copy to hand, perhaps some else could confirm?

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Graham Boak]

IR not UV, I think?  This would fit with the date of the first posting, but I'm not sure of the date for the last one.

[Potato Pete]

Maybe these?

 

https://talesfromthesupplydepot.blog/2020/01/18/raf-binoculars-for-night-use/

 

Pete

[Blimpyboy]

I can’t speak to the RAF, but the Germans had IR-based detectors - however (anecdotally) they were little better than using the naked eye.

 

 I recall the US P-61 had night binoculars, but to my knowledge, they operated in the visual portion of the EM spectrum:

http://www.lonesentry.com/blog/night-binoculars-for-the-p-61-pilot.html

and

https://forums.ubisoft.com/showthread.php/479675-P-61-Night-Vision-Binoculars

 

Maybe they used old Royal Navy night glasses:

https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/43815.html

😉

 

I s’pose any form of enhanced vision is better than nothing.
 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Blimpyboy]

2 hours ago, Potato Pete said:

 

Maybe these?

 

https://talesfromthesupplydepot.blog/2020/01/18/raf-binoculars-for-night-use/

 

https://www.bulldogmilitaria.co.uk/en-GB/all-items/scarce-r-a-f-airborne-special-forces-night-use-binoculars/prod_10191

 

https://www.historicflyingclothing.com/en-GB/raf-station-items/raf-binoculars-mk-iv-cased/prod_14391

Edited June 14, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Troffa]

I recall that Mosquito Night Fighters got a fixed IR detector late in the war,  Have a search for Type F and Type Z equipment.  

 

It's a quite fascinating subject, but one that little official documentation seems to have survived or found its way into the public domain.

[Blimpyboy]

1 hour ago, Troffa said:

Have a search for Type F and Type Z equipment.

Thanks for that - quite interesting!

I have some information about 'Z Equipment' - I was under the impression it was part of the Village Inn system and was an IFF aid, which would tally with it being used to help discriminate friendlies.

 

I could find precious little about F Equipment, maybe it's still secret (after all, it's a growing trend in military affairs that what's old is new again)!

Edited June 14, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Blimpyboy]

2 hours ago, Troffa said:

Type Z equipment

Going not so cheaply to a good home: http://spitfirespares.co.uk/gunsites.3.html

 

Also, purely for interest (apologies for the thread drift):

https://mraths.org.uk/?page_id=480

and

http://www.49squadron.co.uk/assets/pdf/village_inn.pdf

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Troffa]

Thanks for the links on the Type Z kit, I'd forgotten all about Village Inn.  I'm not going to get too far into these waters again, as it always reminds me of the late Edgar Brooks of these parts. with whom I sparred with over a couple of years on the use of IR by the RAF in WW2, but it is a fascinating subject.

 

Here is a blog post which has these various systems described. Have a scroll down past all the drivers systems for the RAF Use. I think this system was in the Mosquito. 

 

search for Type F, Tabby, or  RG on the net. 

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/454321483/Tabby-01

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Blimpyboy]

8 hours ago, Troffa said:

Here is a blog post which has these various systems described. Have a scroll down past all the drivers systems for the RAF Use. I think this system was in the Mosquito. 

 

Hey, that stuff is brilliant! Thanks for the link.

 

I'm rather surprised that British and US developments in UV and IR during WWII aren't better documented (or at least out there for us to find). Doubtless, there are a bunch of files hiding in state archives, waiting to be found! It'll be a fascinating read, I'm sure!

I guess, with Operation Paperclip, much was made of the German advancements, so it gets more widely published. I wonder too, if Allied advancements post-WWII just put all the wartime stuff in the archival shade.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Graham Boak]

I suspect that the main problem lay in the legacy of wartime secrecy, whereas writers were free to dwell on German developments.  The great Allied advances tended not to reach the eyes of the public.  By the time the secrecy was unmasked, few were interested.

[Blimpyboy]

That makes a lot of sense. A pity, I hope someone manages to complete the research one day.

 

Are there many aircrew accounts from the post-war period?

[Denford]

Surely they had been eating raw carrots...

[593jones]

On 6/14/2020 at 4:02 PM, Potato Pete said:

I recall Jimmy Rawnsley in Nighter Fighter referring to using them whilst trying to weed out Luftwaffe intruders from returning Bomber Command aircraft. I don't have my copy to hand, perhaps some else could confirm?

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Yes, I remember reading that in Rawnsley's book, too.  My copy is somewhere in the book stash which is spread over several rooms, boxes, etc.  Anyway, as far as I remember, Rawnsley mentions their use when he and John Cunningham were serving with 85 Squadron; when the AI had brought them into visual range, the glasses were used to confirm the identity of the aircraft before attacking.

[lesliegl]

I have a old VHS copy of the '70's BBCTV series ''The secret War'' episode ''The Battle of the Beams'' towards the end there's a short vid of RAF Mosquito crew coming up behind a aircraft at night as and discussing whether it's a German night fighter and the pilot tells the navigator to ''Use the glasses'' to identify it..maybe it's one of those in this discussion

 

Leslie

[593jones]

Found my copy of 'Night Fighter' today, so can give the quote as follows:

 

It was a dark night and our quarry was hard to see.  I kept pressing John in closer and closer, becoming more and more uneasy as the blip on the cathode ray tube approached minimum range.  We were in to a thousand feet, and then eight hundred.

"I believe I can see his exhaust," John said; "but hang on."

We were still closing in, and down to seven hundred and then six hundred feet, and the blip was scarcely more than a flicker beating at the very fringe of minimum range.

"It'll be out of control any moment," I said; and despite my effort to conceal my anxiety I knew that my voice sounded almost panic-stricken.

"It's OK," John replied, "Take a look."

With infinite relief I looked up from the AI set and sat back.  The other aircraft was barely visible against the overcast sky, nothing but a dark blob and a wafer thin wing around the little blue exhaust flame.  But when I brought the Ross glasses up the whole thing leapt into startling clarity.  It was one-ninety all right, with the wing-tanks still in position and the single big bomb suspended under it's belly.  

I kept watch through the glasses while John fired.  The flash of the hits was dazzling, and immediately the two wing-tanks dropped off.  Looking horribly big and close, they came tumbling back and flicked past right and left just under our wings.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by 593jones

[JohnT]

I can’t add to the information as regards what the term glasses refers to. I do however have a set of 7x50,s binoculars sometimes referred to as night glasses. I can say at night if there is any light from the moon or stars they do enhance what one can see considerably but are obviously well short of the performance of modern night vision aids

 

[John B (Sc)]

Like JohnT  I too have  a set of old 'night glasses' made by Ross, which belonged to my father. Not sure where he got them, probably an illicit swap along with his 1942 pattern RAF Flying Boots.

I recall using them in late evening, owl spotting. They do gather light quite well, with low magnification obviously. . 

 

There are occasional crew reports to be found of 'Ross glasses' apparently being used for target identification at night. Re-reading 'night Fighter' I bet that is what Mr Rawnsley was using.