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F-104 question


Ranger626

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I am modelling a 1/48 German F-104G using the (beautiful!) Kinetic kit.    I want to represent a Quick Reaction Alert aircraft mounting a B43 nuclear weapon.   Requesting help on two questions that I have not found answers to yet:     

 

1)  How were the B43 fins configured?  In an "X" configuration or a "+" configuration?    The Eduard B43 is molded in a "X", but the Daco detail has B43's molded as a"+" and specifically say the bottom fin was left off.  Also, the "+" with bottom fin omitted would give more ground clearance.  I'm leaning toward the "+".     Anyone know for sure?

 

2)   Did German QRA  F-104 aircraft have the florescent orange bands on the wing tip tanks?   Seems like aircraft cocked and loaded for a quick take off combat mission would not have those high-vis markings; while regular line aircraft during peacetime would value the high visibility.    I've seen plenty of photos of German F-104 aircraft both with and without the orange bands on the tip tanks, but do not know if I can imply any meaning to their absence.    My guess is that each JaboG had a few aircraft set up for QRA with no gun, no high vis tank bands, and other special equipment for that mission, while the rest of the squadron aircraft had the high vis bands.  I'll omit the orange tank bands unless someone flags me off.

 

Thanks to anyone who can share their knowledge.

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Here's a Dutch 104 with a B43 dummy, and again only tip tanks:

 

https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/foto-s/detail/edb2f47b-9a02-85e1-56ea-8b23609cc71e/media/00a62de9-dfb8-db2c-7679-10d4fcab765a

 

It's very likely the only official RNLAF photo showing a nuke - they are extremely secretive about it, far more than the US Air Force for example.

 

Rob

 

 

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On 6/15/2020 at 11:36 AM, Rob de Bie said:

they are extremely secretive about it, far more than the US Air Force for example.

The caption even calls it an Orpheus recce pod...

 

AFAIK we Dutch never officially admitted on the record the presence of the US-owned nukes at Volkel, on paper it is still a state secret.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

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1 hour ago, reini said:

Question about the Mk.43  - would the live ones be painted white like the dummy ones?

Good question, but I don't know the answer. An uncle of mine did lots of QRA-shifts at Volkel, but I'm not so sure he would remember. Don't ask me the colour of my bicycle when I was age 10 either.

 

Maybe the DACO 104 set tells more?

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hook said:

The caption even calls it an Orpheus recce pod...

 

AFAIK we Dutch never officially admitted on the record the presence of the US-owned nukes at Volkel, on paper it is still a state secret.

I think there are just three persons who talked about it: former prime ministers Van Agt and Lubbers, and RNLAF pilot Steve Netto.

 

Rob

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12 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said:

I think there are just three persons who talked about it: former prime ministers Van Agt and Lubbers, and RNLAF pilot Steve Netto.

A Belgian defence minister also spoke out of turn, I recall.

 

Still, *officially*.... 

 

Cheets,

 

Andre

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36 minutes ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Yeah, we don't talk about that sorta thing.  NATO is a nuclear alliance, and declares itself as such, but carefully steers away from specifics about what that entails.

What I find strange is the relative openness of the USA and maybe Canada about the subject, and the absolute secrecy by the European NATO partners. It makes no sense to me. And if you have a deterent, show it to the world. But maybe I sound like Dr Strangelove now 🙂

 

Rob

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3 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

What I find strange is the relative openness of the USA and maybe Canada about the subject, and the absolute secrecy by the European NATO partners. It makes no sense to me. And if you have a deterent, show it to the world. But maybe I sound like Dr Strangelove now 🙂

 

Rob

Rob, as long as you don't have any involuntary arm salutations, I think you're fine 😊

 

The U.S. military tends to only be "open" about nuclear capabilities when it's in the country's best (deterrent) interest.  When it's politically more expedient, you tend to hear the "Glomar response": neither confirm, nor deny.

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10 hours ago, CT7567 said:

Rob, as long as you don't have any involuntary arm salutations, I think you're fine 😊

 

The U.S. military tends to only be "open" about nuclear capabilities when it's in the country's best (deterrent) interest.  When it's politically more expedient, you tend to hear the "Glomar response": neither confirm, nor deny.

[choking sounds] "I'm fine sir" 🙂

 

BTW, when I first saw the movie, I had never heard of a phantom hand (arm), so I really did not get the joke. When I watch it now, I cannot stop looking at the Soviet ambassador, who can't keep a straight face at one point during Peter Seller's improvisations.

 

Back to the subject. I just realised that an official photo like the one that Jari added to this thread does not exist in European NATO countries - not a single one I think! All I have ever seen are a few 'illegal' snapshots. It's also a very important part of our military history, and I want to see it documented properly.

 

Rob

 

 

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Try finding pictures of British aircraft with Nuclear weapons, still never seen one of an RAF Phantom carrying one, not even a 'shape'.

 

Interesting hearing about the Dutch nuke sensitivity, some of their maritime special weapons were kept at St Mawgan, along with RAF and USN, used to see all sorts of aircraft in and out, but the only time that I have heard of  a request to confiscate film as during a Kon.marive P-3 arrival.

 

Nice pictures of the Starfighters above, not a lot of wiggle room there!

@Starfighter might know more about this.

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49 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said:

Back to the subject. I just realised that an official photo like the one that Jari added to this thread does not exist in European NATO countries - not a single one I think! All I have ever seen are a few 'illegal' snapshots. It's also a very important part of our military history, and I want to see it documented properly.

I have to correct the 'not a single one' part - I linked above to the very one official RNLAF photo, of an F-104 taking off with a B43 dummy. But I think that one slipped through the cracks. It was on the cover of 'Veilig Vliegen' too, an official RNLAF flight safety magazine.

 

Rob

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20 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Try finding pictures of British aircraft with Nuclear weapons, still never seen one of an RAF Phantom carrying one, not even a 'shape'.

 

Interesting hearing about the Dutch nuke sensitivity, some of their maritime special weapons were kept at St Mawgan, along with RAF and USN, used to see all sorts of aircraft in and out, but the only time that I have heard of  a request to confiscate film as during a Kon.marive P-3 arrival.

I didn't know the RAF strike Phantoms were so sensitive, interesting. And again strange.

 

Now that I think of it, I don't think there were nuclear weapons at Valkenburg, home of the Neptunes/Atlantics/Orions. I've 'consulted' some booklets by the Dutch peace movement, in which they analyse where nuclear storage sites are / were in the Netherlands. It's not that difficult, since the sites always had a huge tropo-scatter antenna tower 🙂 Plus the type of defense perimeter is very easy to spot. I never connected the dots regarding navy nukes and their storage site, but using other sites like St Mawgan makes a lot of sense.


Rob

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Interesting thread!!

One thing to consider is public opinion and that those weapons are/were not in the possesdion of said country.... neither was control about them.... probably way too many unpleasant answers would need to be given... better keeping it low profile alltogether...

 

And as far as I know the We.177 was classied until retirement.. also its shape!

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48 minutes ago, exdraken said:

Interesting thread!!

One thing to consider is public opinion and that those weapons are/were not in the possesdion of said country.... neither was control about them.... probably way too many unpleasant answers would need to be given... better keeping it low profile alltogether...

 

And as far as I know the We.177 was classied until retirement.. also its shape!

'Not in control' is not accurate: the aircraft and pilots were still under national control. So if (say) the Dutch government did not want to play along, the American weapons would not be delivered to their targets.

 

As for 'too many unpleasant answers' and 'better keeping it low profile alltogether' - I think the citizens have more rights than that in a democracy. To me that sounds like a Chinese attitude: leave it the government, do not involve the citizens too much, they are too stupid. I see a bit more of that attitude every day here in the Netherlands. Big words about democracy and freedom on liberation day celebrations, while they're nibbling away at citizen rights. And the population abides. Take the corona measures, that are even in breach of the constitution, hardly a peep in parliament. I find it very worrying.

 

Back to nukes now 🙂

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

'Not in control' is not accurate: the aircraft and pilots were still under national control. So if (say) the Dutch government did not want to play along, the American weapons would not be delivered to their targets.

 

Back to nukes now 🙂

fully understand what you mean, although as Austrian, defence, armed forces and neutrality (within EU and Eurocorps though..) this topic is always a very hypocritical one...

 

in full control would mean they could use them when they'd feed the need to .... but in fact they are only delivery platforms and sharing the responsibility of a very very cold Europe in case of usage..... :(

not sure what is better... being dependent and "supposedly strong" or better independent but "weaker"  you can imagine that there would not be a parliamentary debate about sending out F-16s/ F-35 anyways.... (Corona similarities?) simply for time constraints.... as frightening this may all sound and probably is!

 

 

wonder if there are still nukes stationed in Turkey considering the current situation..... at least German Recce Tornados quietly moved to Jordan some time ago (went back home by now altogether....) 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
On 6/20/2020 at 12:48 AM, Finn said:

Here is a CF-104 with all the equipment, and a few shapes as well:

 

Canadair-CF-104-Starfighter-with-various

 

Jari, a late reply to your great photo. Two questions:

 

1. what nukes do you see here? I *think* I see (left to right) a B28 and B43, both of the practice drop type I think, and another B28 but with more features of the real thing (nose cap, sensor ahead of the front lug), fins that are positioned in a very flat X shape (but why?), and a different colour.

 

2. do you know what type the 'slick' (low drag) practice bombs are, next to the MN-1A ?

 

Rob

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