Late Finnish Brewster 239 cockpit in "light grey" color?

[cema_ga]

Hi comrades!

 

I am build now late variant (winter of 1943) and Classic Airframes instruction tells that on the overhauled Buffaloes cockpits were painted in "light grey" color instead of original natural aluminum and black. Is it true, and which "light grey" is proper?

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

First we must define the "late variant" Brewster. In my opinion there was no such thing.

Not all Brewsters were overhauled. I might be able to help if you can give the BW-3xx number. There are other matters which are more visible than the cockpit colour for example bombing window and sand filter.

 

Valtion Lentokonetehdas (VL) did not usually give any paint colour even less any paint specifications in their repair reports. Usually just mention of the work class: paint repair or a repaint.

 

For Brewster the logic or should we say educated guess is that cockpit repaints would be made with grey. But the possibility of aluminum paint repair can not be excluded.

 

For wartime planes Kiri enamel 34 colour is one which can be found for example Fokker XXI interiors. I have not seen it mentioned in Brewster documents. Fokker fuselage was steel tube framework, BW stressed skin aluminium structure.

 

But let us assume that it was Kiri enamel 34 which was used for BW cockpit repaints. 

Edit Keskinen & Stenman in their Sotamaalaus (Warpaint) book give also "Ikarol 2" and enamel 1543 as interior colours, both greys. I have to dust more around those time permitting. Not an easy task.

 

Kiri colour chart can be found in Finnish National Archive digital databases. The relevant page hopefully below. The cockpit colour samples I have seen personally on museum pieces etc. have been more mid-grey. I can not guarantee that the 34 sample below is colour correct.

 

I emphasize that this sample is hanging on at least two pure assumptions in series: i) that repaints were done in grey and ii) the grey was Kiri 34. Neither of these are verified facts!

 

Hope this helps some,

Kari

 

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Kari Lumppio

[cema_ga]

32 minutes ago, Kari Lumppio said:

First we must define the "late variant" Brewster. In my opinion there was no such thing.

Not all Brewsters were overhauled. I might be able to help if you can give the BW-3xx number. There are other matters which are more visible than the cockpit colour for example bombing window and sand filter.

Thanks a lot!

I'm build now BW-393, as flied by 1 Lt Hans Wild, Commander of 1/LeLv 24, Winter 1943

 

 

Thanks in advance!

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

If you want to do BW-393 with blue rudder and white "7" the time period is before May 1943. For me that is more like mid period of Brewster war time use in Finnish Air Force.

 

BW-393 was damaged heavily January 1942 and sent to Valtion Lentokonetehdas (VL) for major repairs.

It was returned mid May 1942 the plane configuration according protocol was:

• all bombing windows were renewed (when transferred to HLeLv 26 two years later some of them had been replaced with (metal) sheets)
• baggage compartment front and rear wall were renewed (new paint?)
• no mention of cockpit paint repairs nor repaints (see above, though)
• "Kone on maalattu sotakoneiden maalausohjeiden mukaisesti" - plane has been painted according war plane painting instructions. This means gray undersides!

BW-393 did not visit VL nor AF depots before winter 1943-44 so the undersides remained in gray until 1944. It was the last BW from VL like that. The next one out of repairs/overhaul (BW-388) received "DN" matt light blue undersides.

Sand filter was later modification and you need not to bother with that in BW-393 white 7 context.

 

Spring 1943 BW-393 still had white 7, there is photo of it with 22 victory bars (23rd and 24th were claimed May 4th, 1943). Cannot give the photo as it is in the book Kaartinlaivue - Lentolaivue 24 sodassa by Kari Stenman (p. 136).

 

Some BW-393 photos with Hans Wind from SA-kuva archive below. These are from late 1943 when it already was in the 3rd flight colours (orange 9 on green rudder). Cockpit colour almost certainly the same as before as is all the other painting save the rudder and spinner. More victory bars, of course.

 

Hope this helps some,

Kari

 

 

 

August 1943 at Suulajärvi

Note the extra compass on instrument panel coaming (the "corner" by Wind's left thigh)

 

September 1943 at Suulajärvi

 

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Kari Lumppio

[jimmaas]

Kari - I do not think that is an 'extra' compass.  The compass on the F2A-1 was center top on the main instrument panel.  When the Finns installed the Revi gunsight, it went where the compass was, so the compass had to be moved.  Therefore the 'doghouse' was scabbed on to the instrument panel fairing on the starboard side.

 

As far as the gray underside, I agree with you but also know there is another school of thought 

[cema_ga]

19 hours ago, Kari Lumppio said:

all bombing windows were renewed

Wow, what a great info!

 

Looks like I'll paint the cockpit in aluminum and black, as supplied by Brewster

 

Only two questions:

1) IMHO, the bottom wing windows were closed with metal during the first overhauls, together with the camouflage painting. It means IMHO, that only original overall aluminum Buffaloes had the bottom windows. Is it false interpretation?  

 

2) Which "light grey" is representative for the bottom surfaces? Chip #34 from above paint chart?

 

This is my build so far

. The drawing is of USN variant F-2A2

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by cema_ga

[jimmaas]

Hi Cema_ga - what's the source of that drawing, I'd like a copy! 

 

There's another little item.  The smaller of the bumps on the top of the wing (one each side) are covers for the wing gun round counter,  There is a rectangular window facing the pilot (the counter is white with black numbers, but a simple pierce of black decal should do in 1/48).

 

Go HERE for a photo of the round counter.  Sure wish I could post photos directly from my files.

 

[AaCee26]

Hi all,

 

Undersurface colour for metal-built warplanes is stated in Stenman's book "Warpaint" as silver dope. In several pictures there is silver sheen visible on like in the SA-kuva with Wind standing in front of the tail of the BW-393.

 

As Kari states part of the belly windows were replaced with metal sheets if the glasses were broken. Several gues have been going through the maintenance records of the Finnish Brewsters and during factory repairs they were replaced with new glasses.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

[72modeler]

3 hours ago, jimmaas said:

Go HERE for a photo of the round counter.

So that's what that sucker was used for? I never knew that- you learn something every day  here on BM! Now, how the h--- and I going to do those in 1/72 scale, especially now that I've seen them?  Curse you, jimmaas! (Added with thanks for the other Brewster trivia that you have supplied.)

Mike

Edited June 14, 2020 by 72modeler
corrected spelling

[cema_ga]

2 hours ago, jimmaas said:

Hi Cema_ga - what's the source of that drawing, I'd like a copy! 

 

There's another little item.  The smaller of the bumps on the top of the wing (one each side) are covers for the wing gun round counter,  There is a rectangular window facing the pilot (the counter is white with black numbers, but a simple pierce of black decal should do in 1/48).

 

Go HERE for a photo of the round counter.  Sure wish I could post photos directly from my files.

 

 

2 hours ago, AaCee26 said:

Hi all,

 

Undersurface colour for metal-built warplanes is stated in Stenman's book "Warpaint" as silver dope. In several pictures there is silver sheen visible on like in the SA-kuva with Wind standing in front of the tail of the BW-393.

 

As Kari states part of the belly windows were replaced with metal sheets if the glasses were broken. Several gues have been going through the maintenance records of the Finnish Brewsters and during factory repairs they were replaced with new glasses.

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

Great!

Thanks for VERY helpful reference! 

The blind plastic on the bottom wing is already fixed...I will leave it as is. 

Silver or light grey belly???? I can't deside from the photos of BW-372((( Somebody saw it's in museum and can tell?

Do You have any good reference for engine mount and all the pipes around it? They are very visible inside the fuselage. 

And small windows on the wings - they are precious! I will make them from the decals! Fantastic!

 

Thanks a lot!

[AaCee26]

36 minutes ago, cema_ga said:

 

Great!

Thanks for VERY helpful reference! 

The blind plastic on the bottom wing is already fixed...I will leave it as is. 

Silver or light grey belly???? I can't deside from the photos of BW-372((( Somebody saw it's in museum and can tell?

Do You have any good reference for engine mount and all the pipes around it? They are very visible inside the fuselage. 

And small windows on the wings - they are precious! I will make them from the decals! Fantastic!

 

Thanks a lot!

Hi!

 

BW-372 has definately original US colour silver belly.

 

I thought there is somewhere a gallery showing the gear and front fuselage details, but I found quickly only this which is after the conservation: https://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/referenssi_6876/

 

Something can be seen in this image: 

 

Bottom of this page has a set of photos taking during conservation: http://www.aviationmuseum.eu/Blogvorm/keski-suomen-ilmailumuseo/

 

Story of the find with some photos copied from TV-news, so quality is low but may give some idea with the videos: https://users.aalto.fi/~ssipila/bw-372/

 

Cheers,

 

AaCee

 

 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

 

In original Finnish Air Force documents is used term hopeanharmaa. 

 

Hopeanharmaa = Silbergrau (Silver gray) is mix of white and black pigments. See Wikipedia for Silbergrau https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbergrau (Google Translate mangles the article amicably to English). RAL7001 in Germany already in 1927.

 

Silver gray is not silver. 

 

Valtion Lentokonetehdas did not use term hopeanharmaa at all.

 

Their standard paint work instructions from 9.12.1940 mention two paints which are of interest for the grey undersides:

peiteväri 39/304 vaalean harmaa   - top coat/colour 39/304 light gray

peiteväri 39/307 alumiini                - top coat/colour 39/307 aluminium

 

So the aluminum (dope) and light grey are clearly separated at VL which made vast majority of the repaints. The 39/xxx paints did give gloss finish. There is no known colour samples for the paint series.

 

I disagree with Stenman's interpretation in the Warpaint-book and believe that light grey was used on undersides of overhauled BWs in 1941 and early 1942 at VL.

IIRC there is one mention of light grey paint used on a BW aileron repairs but I should go through all individual BW documents to find it. Not going to happen in near future.

There is only 7 potential candidates for the light grey repaints: BW-388 (the 1941 VL visit),-381, -380, -390, -370, -355, -367 and -393 so there is not much material to compare.

 

This is a huge can of worms to open and likely will leave this subject here now.

 

Cheers,

Kari

 

PS I see AC posted about BW-372. There is no doubt that it had silver dope undersides. There were seven BWs which do not have recorded visit (major repair or overhaul) at depot or VL before mid 1943 and likely had aluminium dope undersides until that. One of these was Juutilainen's BW-364.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Kari Lumppio

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, cema_ga said:

any good reference for engine mount and all the pipes around it

The best source for those details and many others would be to get a copy of Naval Fighters Number 104, Brewster F2A Buffalo and Export Variants by Richard Dann and Steve Ginter. No relation or consideration from either author, other than having all of the Naval Fighters and Air Force Legends reference works and referring to them on a regular basis.

Mike

[Kari Lumppio]

16 hours ago, cema_ga said:

1) IMHO, the bottom wing windows were closed with metal during the first overhauls, together with the camouflage painting. It means IMHO, that only original overall aluminum Buffaloes had the bottom windows. Is it false interpretation?  

 

 

This somehow slipped past.

 

Bottom windows (bombing windows) were renewed during overhauls up until 1943 or so (latest ones). Also the bomb release mechanisms were overhauled even if the bomb racks were never installed AFAIK.

 

There is no fast rules regarding FinnAF Brewsters and bottom windows. Camouflage does NOT mean that the windows were closed in.

 

Cheers,

Kari