EA-3B cabin windows question

[Rob de Bie]

I have a Hasegawa 1/72 KA-3B that I want to convert into a VQ-2 EA-3B. One of many modifications involved are the cabin windows on the side(s) of the fuselage, in the former bomb bay area. I started designing 3D CAD parts recently, and high on my list was an insert for the kit, that included the three windows plus the escape door. The main dimensions were taken from a photo (shown below) and a photo of the escape door in the Aerograph book (page 91). I measured 15" windows, a little smaller than what's shown in the Aerograph book.

 

Shown below is the first version of the CAD model. It features a very slight bulge (large radius) in the the fuselage side, that you can see on the right edge of the part. I measured that radius on the model itself. The three window openings have coamings to mount transparant parts.

The escape door was by far the most laborious part, with chamfers everywhere and in all directions, a few of which I could not incorporate. It needs some more fine-tuning, especially in the extra thickness of its lower part. It looks extra thick because there's no fuselage in the model. The door handle and the hinges are missing.

Now for the main question: did EA-3Bs have plugged windows on the left side too? I see them fairly clearly in this Prime Portal walkaround photo of BuNo 146453:

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/bill_spidle4/ea-3b_146453/images/ea-3b_146453_11_of_17.jpg

But they are absent in this photo of BuNo 146454:

https://www.dstorm.eu/pictures/nose-arts/ea-3b/146454_36.jpg

Both were originally built as A3D-2Q / EA-3B, so they are not conversions of a type that always had windows on the left side. I probably will do BuNo 146457, and I do not know whether it had left-side windows, hence the question. If yes, I will design another part to do the left side.

Rob

[JeffreyK]

I think the electronics suite is built along the port side of the cabin with the seats on starboard, facing port. So I don't think there would be windows on post side. I can't access my books at the moment though...

J

[Rob de Bie]

7 minutes ago, JeffreyK said:

I think the electronics suite is built along the port side of the cabin with the seats on starboard, facing port. So I don't think there would be windows on post side. I can't access my books at the moment though...

J

That's correct, the left side of the cabin is completely covered by the consoles of the operators. But still, the first linked photo clearly shows the outlines of the windows on the left side:

 

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/bill_spidle4/ea-3b_146453/images/ea-3b_146453_11_of_17.jpg

 

Rob

[Jabba]

They maybe similar to the Nimrod R1s that I used to work on. Where the racking was situated (Pt side in the fwd fuselage, STBD side in the rear fuselage) the external windows that used to be there were blanked off as they would not be used with square sleets of metal. Perhaps this was done on theEA-3Bs but in a better way in that the blank fitted inside the old window.

[71chally]

As Jeffrey says, the windows are only fitted on the stb'd side as the consoles are on the port side.

Mid cabin windows were fitted on both sides only to the TA-3B, and the various derivations of that.

Interesting the window frame impressions that you see in the picture though, and I have noticed this on preserved RA-3Bs in the same place.  I wonder if all the 'Versions' (EA, TA & RA) type Skywarriors featured structures to accept windows on both sides?

 

You're probably already aware, but EA-3Bs were part of the 'Versions' family of Skywarriors so already had the midships pressurised crew compartment, but the Hasegawa kit features the 'Bomber' canopy, which I don't think they ever changed.

 

That's a great part that you've made there Rob, there could be a market for that!  Eventually I would like to model EA-3B 146454.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by 71chally
clarity

[Rob de Bie]

5 minutes ago, Jabba said:

They maybe similar to the Nimrod R1s that I used to work on. Where the racking was situated (Pt side in the fwd fuselage, STBD side in the rear fuselage) the external windows that used to be there were blanked off as they would not be used with square sleets of metal. Perhaps this was done on theEA-3Bs but in a better way in that the blank fitted inside the old window.

Yes, that's my thinking too. The plugged windows are still visible, as one can see in my first photo link. But I don't think you can make those plugs invisible, and yet the second photo link shows a smooth left fuselage side..

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

9 minutes ago, 71chally said:

As Jeffery says, the windows are only fitted on the stb'd side as the consoles are on the port side.

Windows were fitted on both sides to the TA-3B, and the various derivations of that.

Interesting the window frame impressions that you see in the picture though, and I have noticed this on preserved RA-3Bs in the same place.  I wonder if all the 'Versions' (EA, TA & RA) type Skywarriors featured structures to accept windows on both sides?

 

That's a great part that you've made Rob, there could be a market for that!  Eventually I would like to model EA-3B 146454.

You're probably already aware, but EA-3Bs were part of the 'Versions' Skywarriors so already had the midships pressurised crew compartment, but the Hasegawa kit features the 'Bomber' canopy, which I don't think they ever changed.

I think I've seen the plugged windows in RA-3s too. Which lead to the same thought as yours: maybe all 'Versions' types had them? But there are also some EA-3Bs with no signs of windows.

 

My current plan is to have the part 3D printed, prime and sand until smooth, and then cast resin copies. That's mainly since I'm quite unsure how well 3D printed resin will hold up in the longer term. If 'my' EA-3B had left side (plugged) windows too, I can easily convert the 3D part into one with four plugged windows, and create an extra part.

 

Yes, I'm aware that the cabin windows are just part of the conversion problem. The cambered leading edge wing and that darned 8 psi canopy are the other big ones. Plus the EA-3B specific parts of course.

 

Rob

Edited June 10, 2020 by Rob de Bie

[71chally]

20 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said:

But there are also some EA-3Bs with no signs of windows.

It is odd, just two thoughts (and they are only thoughts), maybe some were ordered as TA's and became EA's on the line, or that the unkept condition of the airframe reveals/accentuates the false window lines?

 

I wonder what @Tailspin Turtle thinks?

[Rob de Bie]

1 minute ago, 71chally said:

It is odd, just two thoughts (and they are only thoughts), maybe some were ordered as TA's and became EA's on the line, or that the unkept condition of the airframe reveals/accentuates the false window lines?

Good question, I forgot to mention that. Both BuNo 146453 and 146454, of which I linked photo in the first post, are both listed as built as A3D-2Q a.k.a. EA-3B. They were even next to each other on the production line. Yet the first has left-side plugged windows, the second has no visible windows.

 

Rob

[Finn]

Rob here is a pic of one of them:

 

 

Jari

[Rob de Bie]

12 minutes ago, Finn said:

Rob here is a pic of one of them:

Jari

Thanks! I think that's BuNo 146454, the one that attended the RIAT 1991 air show. As far as I can see in other views of the aircraft, this one appears no plugged windows on the left fuselage side.

 

Rob

[71chally]

7 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

I probably will do BuNo 146457, and I do not know whether it had left-side windows, hence the question.

I've only just noticed that you said this, in all the images I've seen of 146457 I can't make out any evidence of skinning or frames for windows, and as you point out, the same for '454.

 

Another example of the ghost window frames, '448.  Looks like four, in the same position as you would expect to see on a TA.  Note that there seems to be more panel or structure lines ahead of the windows aswel.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/spb1967pics/39793140645/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajw1970/18659177876

 

Another fascinating Skywarrior-ism!

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by 71chally

[Peter Rozendal]

Hi Rob,

 

Do you know this book: link?

 

I cannot make out any "windows" on the port side of the EA-3B's in this book.

 

When we are allowed to have meetings again you are welcome to peruse my copy of this book.

 

Regards,

 

Peter.

 

 

[71chally]

...but, take a good look at these images of 146457,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/navy_whaler/5632932573/in/dateposted/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/htf2wfd/27487226045/in/photolist-Kp1vCq-Zu7sKG-JTMqgr-KeHoHv-bBkDTg-2bhhTKf-DwL34o-2g3SmYp-dCDg2Q-dtc7Xm-9zLfLp-dtc89G-2g3RD3f-dtbXGV-dtc8j5-dtc8As-dtbXy8-dtbWAB-sgiFoH-rYJrCd-quwTfs-2g4hPRd-2g4h95k-HLBcCD-GXgxAi-2g3SuLc-dtc9dJ-dtc973-dtc8V3-dtc8Mw-9zLfHB-2iJ4GbX-HSXdEr-Zmmoxk

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24505872@N03/14990704782/in/photolist-oQFhgh-QxgBvx-oydjnZ-2gX98vZ-QGcPfg-2e35KYA-PAhAMs-bQDean-N2dFXa-8DuGNu-62n4bp-62n3ZT-8dghZZ-62ri8N-62n3St-62rhmd-bDCVMj-GmuDva-Zu7sKG-nsubBm-abrc6J-imEZw5-oHcPUG-sgiFoH-c4xb8m-quwTfs-2bnmnVY-sroed-23CofkP-7XneCY-dCDg2Q-9zLfLp-NHKQp3-KeHoHv-rYJrCd-28q85ny-hg6B3k-28NCY8y-BfuM5E-BEjEco-Bb5nhw-noyEd4-8mYkiF-2foNcHS-FeN7Hc-aRapSt-inaHH5-awMzYJ-2hMBEsg-boBBhd

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by 71chally

[Rob de Bie]

1 hour ago, 71chally said:

...but, take a good look at these images of 146457,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/navy_whaler/5632932573/in/dateposted/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/htf2wfd/27487226045/in/photolist-Kp1vCq-Zu7sKG-JTMqgr-KeHoHv-bBkDTg-2bhhTKf-DwL34o-2g3SmYp-dCDg2Q-dtc7Xm-9zLfLp-dtc89G-2g3RD3f-dtbXGV-dtc8j5-dtc8As-dtbXy8-dtbWAB-sgiFoH-rYJrCd-quwTfs-2g4hPRd-2g4h95k-HLBcCD-GXgxAi-2g3SuLc-dtc9dJ-dtc973-dtc8V3-dtc8Mw-9zLfHB-2iJ4GbX-HSXdEr-Zmmoxk

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24505872@N03/14990704782/in/photolist-oQFhgh-QxgBvx-oydjnZ-2gX98vZ-QGcPfg-2e35KYA-PAhAMs-bQDean-N2dFXa-8DuGNu-62n4bp-62n3ZT-8dghZZ-62ri8N-62n3St-62rhmd-bDCVMj-GmuDva-Zu7sKG-nsubBm-abrc6J-imEZw5-oHcPUG-sgiFoH-c4xb8m-quwTfs-2bnmnVY-sroed-23CofkP-7XneCY-dCDg2Q-9zLfLp-NHKQp3-KeHoHv-rYJrCd-28q85ny-hg6B3k-28NCY8y-BfuM5E-BEjEco-Bb5nhw-noyEd4-8mYkiF-2foNcHS-FeN7Hc-aRapSt-inaHH5-awMzYJ-2hMBEsg-boBBhd

 

Oh, interesting!! In the middle link, I think I see the last 2 1/2 windows in the shadowy area. Or am I going window-crazy?? In the other two photos I don't see them yet 😂

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

1 hour ago, Peter Rozendal said:

Hi Rob,

 

Do you know this book: link?

I cannot make out any "windows" on the port side of the EA-3B's in this book.

When we are allowed to have meetings again you are welcome to peruse my copy of this book.

Hi Peter, nice to meet you here 🙂 That surely looks like an interesting book, I did not know of its existence. Hope to see you soon!

 

Rob

[Rob de Bie]

2 hours ago, 71chally said:

I've only just noticed that you said this, in all the images I've seen of 146457 I can't make out any evidence of skinning or frames for windows, and as you point out, the same for '454.

 

Another example of the ghost window frames, '448.  Looks like four, in the same position as you would expect to see on a TA.  Note that there seems to be more panel or structure lines ahead of the windows aswel.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/spb1967pics/39793140645/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajw1970/18659177876

 

Another fascinating Skywarrior-ism!

Thanks for finding these interesting photos! I'm starting to think that all EA-3Bs have the left-side windows, but most of the time you just cannot see them, unless up-close. I will start work on making a 3D-model of the left side too, with just four outlines of windows. It will be an obscure detail of the (future) model for me to enjoy 🙂

 

Rob

[Richard E]

It looks like you may already have a plethora of references Rob but would @Old Viper Tester's pictures here help ?

[JeffreyK]

Just to play devil's advocate:

You know you want to build an EA-3B, even a particular one and you know that due to the electronics suite and consoles there aren't any windows on port side of the cabin. Why would you try to make a whole resin fuselage plug for port side? If the cabin had plugged windows there the detail would be more or less disappearing in 1:72. Even in high res photos it's hard to see on the original...

I'm usually the first to support a strive for total accuracy but this might just be a little too much trouble for hardly any benefit...?

Perhaps a simpler option would be plotter-cut thin vinyl stick-on detail for the windows. They line up along the refuelling probe so placement should be relatively easy.

Cheers,

J

[CT7567]

Quite an intriguing question you've raised here, @Rob de Bie.  As my Skywarrior references are limited I'll defer to experts like @Tailspin Turtle on the definitive answer, but it seems to me there are a few potential explanations for the "blanked windows" on the port side of some apparent EA-3Bs that wouldn't require their presence on every airframe.

 

First, it looks like most if not all of the photos posted thus far of EA-3Bs with the port window blanks are museum birds or gate guards.  If the pedigree of the BuNo on display hasn't been confirmed, it's possible it was a TA-3B converted for display of a more exotic/"combat" type. Purely speculative, but it seems more logical than building new EA-3B airframes with windows that would never be used (note a "common" fuselage for Version production would have plugged these on 2 of the 3 types, as the RA-3B also lacks the "airliner" cabin windows).

 

Another hypothesis is based on well-documented "discrepancies" in the P-3/EP-3 fleet.  Particularly where the VQ Sigint types were concerned, the Orion fleet was notorious among spotters for using duplicate or spurious BuNos and a multitude of non-standard antennae & equipment configurations.  As the EA-3B squadrons performed much the same role as the EP-3s (and "undercover" P-3 variants), it seems plausible there might have been false BuNos and /or antenna mods made to some Skywarrior variants at some point.  Again, entirely speculative but seems more likely IMHO than Douglas punching holes in a fuselage that they'd just have to go back and fill in.

[Red Dot]

Why not do both versions with your 3D models? That way, when you sell them(😉), you cover all bases.

 

Or alternatively, do the visible window version and then the panel lines can be filled if not required.

 

Andy

[71chally]

3 hours ago, CT7567 said:

First, it looks like most if not all of the photos posted thus far of EA-3Bs with the port window blanks are museum birds or gate guards.  If the pedigree of the BuNo on display hasn't been confirmed, it's possible it was a TA-3B converted for display of a more exotic/"combat" type. Purely speculative, but it seems more logical than building new EA-3B airframes with windows that would never be used (note a "common" fuselage for Version production would have plugged these on 2 of the 3 types, as the RA-3B also lacks the "airliner" cabin windows).

In these cases, with the Bu Nos, trusted sources state they were delivered as A3D-2Qs / EA-3Bs and they are known to have served and retired as such.  However, there is at least one case of a Skywarrior being so converted during service life though, starting out as a A3D-2T / TA-3B, then becoming an ERA-3B and finally ending up as an EA-3B.

I would agree with your second paragraph.

[71chally]

9 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

Oh, interesting!! In the middle link, I think I see the last 2 1/2 windows in the shadowy area. Or am I going window-crazy?? In the other two photos I don't see them yet 😂

I didn't want to say anything as I didn't want to influence what you might be able to see, but I can just about make out impressions/depressions of all four 'windows' in those last two pictures, which can be enlarged.

The first smaller picture is quite useful as it seems to show an impression of the whole window frame quite clearly, at the right hand edge of the image.

 

This is just my personal theory, all the 'Versions' were built with all port and stb'd window frames and skinning, but only the TA had the windows actually fitted in the port side.

The condition of the airframe (and lighting conditions in various photos) seems vital to whether we can see these 'window' impressions, or not.  In post #12 I was thinking only some airframes ad this, but pictures of the same jet (146457) in #14 now makes me think differently.

146454 is the one EA that I can't definitely make anything out on, but a good set of images showing it when tired or scrapped might reveal otherwise.

A good set of factory pictures would be useful, but in the years I've been studying the Skywarrior I've never seen anything that would corroborate this.  I guess contacting the Skywarrior Association, or the various restoration teams might get some useful information?

 

I'm with @JeffreyK and Andy on rendering this feature on a kit, we've had to look really hard to find the window impressions and I think on a kit of an in service Whale I would at most lightly scribe in the window frames just to give the meerest impression.

 

I have the Trumpeter TA Skywarrior to turn into an EA at some stage, so I will simply fit both sets of windows and paint over on the port side ones. 

I will take this opportunity here to thank @JeffreyK for researching, creating and selling superb parts to completely overhaul this cartoon of a kit into a meaningful model of a classic jet. 

I just hope that one day he has the time to create a 72nd 'Versions' canopy for the lovely Hasegawa kit!

[Tailspin Turtle]

6 hours ago, 71chally said:

In these cases, with the Bu Nos, trusted sources state they were delivered as A3D-2Qs / EA-3Bs and they are known to have served and retired as such.  However, there is at least one case of a Skywarrior being so converted during service life though, starting out as a A3D-2T / TA-3B, then becoming an ERA-3B and finally ending up as an EA-3B.

I would agree with your second paragraph.

What is the BuNo of that unusual conversion? Or pictures documenting it? As far as I know, no TA-3Bs were converted to ERA-3Bs but if I remember correctly, at least one was assigned to a squadron operating ERA-3Bs for pilot proficiency. Some RA-3Bs were converted to ERA-3Bs but as far as I know, no ERA-3B was converted to an EA-3B: that would be a major modification; it would be easier to convert a TA-3B to an EA-3B although I doubt that ever happened either.

 

For a summary of the various A-3 configurations and corresponding designations, see https://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2010/09/mighty-skywarrior.html

 

Also, I am all but certain that all A3D-2Ts and A3D-2Qs were built using tooling that resulted in windows on both sides of the cabin. Because of its significantly different cabin (a “bomb” bay aft of the occupied compartment), the A3D-2P appears to have been built with only the two forward windows as portholes. However, I wouldn’t be surprised (and would be appreciative) if someone came up with a picture of an A3D-2P or ERA-3B with window frame outlines aft of the forward one.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Tailspin Turtle

[71chally]

43 minutes ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

What is the BuNo of that unusual conversion? Or pictures documenting it? As far as I know, no TA-3Bs were converted to ERA-3Bs but if I remember correctly, at least one was assigned to a squadron operating ERA-3Bs for pilot proficiency.

 

Also, I am all but certain that all A3D-2Ts and A3D-2Qs were built using tooling that resulted in windows on both sides of the cabin. Because of its significantly different cabin (a “bomb” bay aft of the occupied compartment), the A3D-2P appears to have been built with only the two forward windows as portholes. However, I wouldn’t be surprised (and would be appreciative) if someone came up with a picture of an A3D-2P or ERA-3B with window frame outlines aft of the forward one.

 

That's probably the one then Tommy, thought that I read that it was converted to an ERA, before becoming an EA.  I'm away from references at the moment.

 

There are photos of tired RAs/ERAs which seem to show similar impressions of windows to the EAs.

 

Thank you for clearing all that up 👍

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by 71chally