Battle of the River Forth Ju 88

[ptarmigan]

With the release of Revell's new Ju 88A-1 kit I have decided to build one of the planes shot down at the Battle of the River Forth (I used to live in Edinburgh and all that 🙂) . The two planes shot down were Junkers Ju 88A-1 of I./KG30, codes 4D+AK and 4D+DH. Unfortunately I have not been able to find any decent information on these two particular aircraft, most importantly the colours of the code letters on their sides. (I guess for the livery I can use the standard one in use in October 1939.) Even the unit shield is uncertain to me - was it the original "umbrella in a gunsight" (more likely), or the new "diving eagle"? Questions, questions...

[Girvan67]

Les Taylor’s book Luftwaffe over Scotland lists Hptm Pohl’s Ju-88 as from the Gruppenstab and Ltn Storp’s ac from 1 staffel. This should mean a Green letter A for Hptm Pohl (I Gruppe Staff aircraft) and White D for Ltn Storp (1 staffel)

 

this though throws up a question as a Gruppstab aircraft from I Gruppe should have a B after the Green A (4D+AB) and not the K (4D+AK would be from 2 staffel)

 

 

[ptarmigan]

Thanks Girvan67, good observation 👍 I will try to confirm it from other sources and get closer to the answer.

It surprising how little is known considering this was the first German raid on Britain in WW II.

[JohnT]

You might find this of passing interest

 

 

 

 

[Girvan67]

I should have added that this applies  only if they were flying their assigned aircraft...

 

also the 4D+AK would have a red letter A (2 staffel)

 

the 3rd letter colour and 4th letter should be as below

 

I Gruppe

Stab. Green, B

1 staffel. White, H 

2 staffel. Red, K

3 Staffel. yellow L

 

II Gruppe

Stab. Green, C

4 staffel. White, M

5 staffel. Red, N

6 staffel. Yellow, P

 

III Gruppe

Stab. Green, D

7 staffel. White, R

8 staffel. Red, S

9 Staffel. Yellow, T

[vppelt68]

As a picture is worth a thousand words...

 

[Girvan67]

Kiitos vpplelt68

 

that what I was trying to say....

 

[ptarmigan]

Thanks! Let's assume Pohle was flying a Staffel 2 aircraft, which simplifies things. So what now remains to find out which shield the aircraft used -  most likely the umbrella, of which there are several versions. Like this one, or the one sold with the kit.

 

[redleader]

I've wondered why Gruppe Kommandeur, KG30, Hauptmann Helmut Pohle was supposedly piloting a 2 Staffel 88 on the Firth of Forth raid of 16.10.39. Maybe KG30 Gruppestab had not been assigned any aircraft the time – after all, only sixty Ju 88s in total, of all types, were delivered to the Luftwaffe in 1939. Or maybe Stab had the older A-0 model – were they considered unsuitable for accompanying A-1s on a combat mission? Or maybe Pohle's personal a/c was unserviceable on the 16th? Each of these scenarios could have lead Pohle to pilot a 2 Staffel a/c on the raid, instead of a customary Stab a/c. Either that, or AK "Anton Konrad" has been mis-reported as his a/c that day (possible). Many questions... 

 

If Pohle did fly 4D+AK on the raid, surviving records of contemporary KG30 88s suggest it would have had regulation RML70/71 Splinter camo on upper surfaces with RLM65 undersides, possibly with a high demarcation line between the two. All six Balkenkreuz were possibly narrow-type with the thinner white flanks. The Maschinekennung may have been displayed in full on the underside of the wings outboard of the Balkankreuz in the form 4D+  +AK, but A+  +K is also possible, as is the same on the wing uppers. Or nothing at all in all cases! The fuselage Maschinekennung would probably have had the aircraft identifier (A) in the 2 Staffel colour (red). The a/c spinner caps would also probably be red. KG30's Adler shield crest was not adopted until sometime after the raid, a/c would be carrying the umbrella/bombsight shield under the cockpit, with black umbrella and red bombsight on a white shield. Both Pohle's and Storpe's 88s ditched and sank in the Forth after maulings from 602 Sq and 603 Sq Spitfires. Salvage was attempted, but much of the aircraft were unrecovered, as were the remains of two crew members. RIP. I am not aware of a detailed description of either a/c from British sources, or indeed German, apart from brief entries in the Luftwaffe Loss Record http://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/luftlossreg-bomb-KG30.html , Many Questions...

Hopefully you may find some answers here (if not more questions...) https://www.pinterest.co.uk/ianreddie/ju-88/kampfgeschwader-30-adler/

Regards

[G.R.Morrison]

redleader,

     To address your questions in sequence, those early Ju 88s were issued to many units, not only the KG 30, but also the III/LG 1, the 7./KG 4 (ordinarily considered a He 111 outfit, the III Gruppe was redesignated the III/KG 30, and their ‘5J’ Kennung appropriately changed to “4D”), the I/KG 51, and several Aufklärungs Staffeln, such as 4.(F)/121, 4.(F)/122, 1.(F)/123.  Some remained for testing at Rechlin, a couple went to Heinkel/Oranienburg; the one recovered from the Norwegian lake had been with the 4./Erg.KGr.4.

 

Why was ‘the Boss’ flying a 2. Staffel machine?  It’s not uncommon for a Kommandeur or Staffelkapitän to be using another aircraft rather than their ‘expected’ “A” – there are many, many examples of this.   In some cases, it’s about serviceability, in other cases it is unit tradition (several bomber Gruppen used ‘X’, “Y” and ‘Z’ for their Stab aircraft, rather than A, B. C).  The same holds true for the Jagdwaffe.  A Staffelkapitän may fly ‘1’ or may prefer using a different ‘lucky’ number.  Others apparently had no ‘regular’ machine, and their Flugbuch reveals a series of different numbers used.  In some Staffeln, they had a tradition of the Staffelkapitän using a particular ‘non-1’ airplane, through a succession of commanders.

 

The earliest (Ju 88A-0) machines of the 1. & 2./KG 30 that I have photographs of (4D+AH, 4D+CH, 4D+KH, 4D+CK, 4D+HK) have conventional camouflage separation, except for the “4D+HK” which does indeed have RLM 65 carried slightly higher along the fuselage.  The colored portions of the fronts of the spinners are larger than seen later on their A-1s, A-5s.  The Balkenkreuze on all have the later (?) cross proportions, excepting “4D+CH” and  “4D+HK” which have narrower crosses on the fuselage and beneath the wings.  The underwing Kennung are in two styles, on 1. Staffel, +4D CH+ (with small, outboard underwing crosses).  BTW, the fuselage ‘C’ was first black, then changed to white.  On 2.Staffel aircraft the individual Kennung (‘C’ of “4D+CK”) is carried outboard, under both wings.  None of the ten photos show the wing uppersurfaces, so I can not comment on whether the letter was displayed there – some units did this, plenty did not.  The ‘umbrella in the gunsight’ on a white shield was carried on both sides of the nose.

 

The ‘brief entries’ you mention were typical for the Gen. Qu. 6.Abt. during this period, most often just a type is listed, not sub-type, nor Werknummer.  We’re never going to have all the answers we seek, as it is reliably estimated that 97% of Luftwaffe documentation is gone, and not likely to be rediscovered.  When you consider that ALL of the flying units were less than 6% of the Luftwaffe’s forces, you can begin to understand just how little there is to work with.  But, we keep adding to the jigsaw puzzle when we can.

 

Hope this helps, GRM

Edited June 15, 2020 by G.R.Morrison
Edit: fix typo

[G.R.Morrison]

vppelt68,

 

I would be cautious about relying on the Dornier drawing, as it has several goofs.  Coded for the 5./KG 2, the Staffel emblem is that of the 3./KG 2 (different Gruppe).  The diagonal nose band was not applied to all aircraft in a Staffel.  Was it on Brendenbach & Hein's "U5+DN", or later on Krings' WNr.2636 "U5+DN"?  I can not say for certain.  In any case the nose band would not have been yellow.

 

Red letter-use didn't last long, soon most 2., 5., and 8. Staffeln would be using black instead.

 

Regarding the chart of which letter is assigned to which Staffel, it's fine as a base for most KG units, but not for the Transport Gruppen, which always had four Staffeln (the 4. using a blue letter).  These units can be confusing, due to several unrelated units using the same Einheitskennung (such as "4V", "G6", and "9P"), and Staffel indicators that don't align with the number of the Staffel, such as "G6+DX" of the 1./KGrzbV 105, "4V+AN" of the 1./KGrzbV 106, or "4V+ET" of the 1./KGrzbV 172.

 

This was intended to provide light, not heat, GRM

[vppelt68]

Thanks GRM, no heat provided at all! I hadn't even looked closer at the Dornier as I have little interest in it, I only regard the chart as a handy reference, remembering that with any air force there are always exceptions 🙂

V-P

[redleader]

Thanks for the info GRM, goes to show that rules are rules. Except when they're not. Even if we did have all the werknummer and maintenance records, it still requires photographic evidence to finally nail the question of how a particular a/c looked at a specific time. Then there was wartime censorship, with deleted unit crests and codes... I'd be most interested to see the early KG30 pics you mention. Are they public domain and/or available online? 

[John]

Not much help with the individual Luftwaffe aircraft but Buckton gives a good overview of the action:

 

 

There's also the mammoth 2 volume work on 603 Squadron by Ross, Blanche and Simpson, which will probably be obtainable when our local libraries start to reopen:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Greatest-Squadron-Them-All-Definitive/dp/1904010490/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=603+squadron&qid=1592059115&quartzVehicle=1487-2036&replacementKeywords=squadron&sr=8-3

 

I've mentioned before that my late father watched at least some of the action from the cliffs at Kinghorn on his was back from a trainspotting trip to Thornton Junction.

 

John

[ptarmigan]

22 hours ago, redleader said:

I've wondered why Gruppe Kommandeur, KG30, Hauptmann Helmut Pohle was supposedly piloting a 2 Staffel 88 on the Firth of Forth raid of 16.10.39. Maybe KG30 Gruppestab had not been assigned any aircraft the time

This is unlikely, at least if the following info from https://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/kg30.html is correct:
 

I. Gruppe:

Formed 22 Sep 1939 in Jever from I./KG25 with:

Stab I./KG30 from 1./KG25
1./KG30 new
2./KG30 from 2./KG25
3./KG30 new

[redleader]

KG 30 was being cobbled-together as the A-1s ever-so-slowly arrived. First to receive them would probably be the Kampfstaffel (sometimes described as the 'readiness' squadron) 1./KG30, many of whose crew were experienced Condor Legion veterans from the Spanish Civil War. The question I have is whether, tactically, Gruppe Stab would be next in line for the new machines, or 2 Staffel? 4D+AK (2 Staffel by its maschinekennung) was ostensibly Gruppekommandeur Pohle's a/c on the Firth of Forth Raid. It was, according to the Luftwaffe Loss Archive, an A-1. KG30's existing A-0s would likely be downgraded s the A-1s arrived, for training, non-combat roles, and spares. There was a constant problem of attrition; mechanical failures (of which early 88s were particularly prone) and accidents – some with fatalities. My point is, that in October 1939, KG 30 was by necessity a hodge-potch of aircraft, and a Geschwader on paper only. This ad hoc arrangement could possibly be reflected in how the aircraft looked. Different Staffel, different models of aircraft, and the constant flurry of directives being issued by a Reichsluftfahrtministrie with a serious war on its hands. Without documentary or photographic evidence, without werknummer or maintenance records, we are left with guesses, conjecture, and detective work. Which is what makes this hobby so compulsive! It may be that conclusive proof of how Pohle's (or Storp's) a/c looked on the day will never be forthcoming (pardon the pun). But with available facts, and reasoned logic, a case can be built for how they probably, possibly, might, have looked.