Grant in Africa

[Andy G]

Hello,

I haven't done much in the way of AFV building.  Very little - I built the Airfix 1:72(6?) Sherman many moons ago and this is my first 1:35 vehicle.  On our trade stand at shows we have a Tamiya Grant as a 'prop' that is very slowly getting built.  With the hiatus in shows I'd like to move it on largely to gain practice for building some of the other models in my stash.  I understand that the Grants were originally delivered in Olive Drab and this was overpainted on arrival in Africa.  Looking at several pictures on the IWM site there appears to be dark scratches and scrapes showing through quite commonly.  The picture below appears to show worn paint revealing a dark colour underneath.  Is this the green showing through?

 

Taken from https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205203989

 

I can find guides for painting and weathering vehicles in Europe but I'm drawing a blank on Africa.

 

Cheers

Andy

[Bullbasket]

Hi Andy. Yes, quite likely to be the OD showing through as desert winds and sand took it's toll on the paint scheme. There were quite a few cammo schemes on the Grants, and if you can hold on a couple of hours, I can post some on here for you.

I know that the same happened to Shermans that were delivered to N.Africa, and whilst they were repainted in various desert colours, quite often the lower hull, ie; where the running gear attached, was left in OD.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

As my learned friend says, the desert and the crew's boots took a toll on the paint finish applied locally.  There was some debate in the past that some Grants may have been factory-finished in a desert colour.  But this has been debunked - or at least is not proven.

 

That picture is very pale and I might suggest is potentially the creamy Portland Stone rather than the darker yellower Light Stone.  Portland Stone would probably be a plain uncamouflaged finish.  Many Grants were not disruptively painted, to give camouflage painting its correct British name.  Schemes involving green, black, brown and red-brown were all used - sometimes quite elaborate and sometimes involving 2 additional colours or outlining of the coloured areas in black or white - or both.

 

You see pictures of Grants with sprockets half OD and half sand and OD-striped wheels where these areas were behind the sand shields and suspension arms and the tank was not moved to allow them to be painted.  And yes you see the lower hull sides behind the bogies often not painted.  This actually fitted in with the Sunshade truck disguise as it mimicked the shadow under a truck body.  I have seen a Grant with only the centre bogie painted sand, the outer ones posing as the darker truck wheels for the disguise.

 

If you look up the Star and Echelon decal sheets for Grants online you can see their interpretations of some of these schemes in colour.  Online period photos will be monochrome, but will show patterns.  There were approved and published schemes to be followed: crews and units were not supposed to "do their own thing", although many did.  The best reference for colours and schemes are Mike Starmer's booklets but a potted version of the basic info is on the MAVFA website here https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463

[Andy G]

Das, John,

Thanks for the info and pointers. I'd set off painting the tank in Portland Stone a while back so I shall try and get it looking something like the one in that photo.  Very grateful for the confirmation that it is likely to be the od showing through - now to just make it look believable and not over-done.

 

Cheers

Andy

[f matthews]

The first Grants that came over in Feb/March of ‘42 were delivered to the theatre without some components-like track guard/side skirts.  Yes, the original OD colour showed through quite a bit, but I liked the idea of the “late delivery” parts that missed getting repainted so much, I chose that finish for a Grant that I built earlier this year.  Some great links and ideas suggested above-I’m perusing them now to plan out my next Grant, which hopefully, I can start on next month.

Best of luck with your build and finish!

 

[Andy G]

That looks very nice, if i can achieve a finish something like that I’ll be very very happy

[f matthews]

That’s Tamiya Desert Yellow base coat with a pretty-much-covering coat of Tamiya Buff.  The mixes called for to mix Light Stone always look unnaturally yellow to me.

Edited June 9, 2020 by f matthews

[Kingsman]

On 6/9/2020 at 2:23 AM, f matthews said:

The mixes called for to mix Light Stone always look unnaturally yellow to me.

The Light Stone in recent and current Army use in Iraq and Afghanistan and still frequently seen in the UK is exactly the same colour as the WW2 colour. Its BS codification has not changed. To have done so would have been to defeat the whole purpose of colour codification.

[Mike Starmer]

Bs.381C No.61 Light Stone is yellow.  It is not the same colour as the current BS,381C No.361 which was introduced in the 1948 edition of the standard despite the use of the same name.   Whilst the Grant model is well built the colour is too brown, the basic British desert colours were not brown, they were initially yellow and cream, later pink.  I devised the Tamiya mixes against my substitute standard, in turn made against an original 1930 swatch.

[Kingsman]

Apologies about the Light Stone. I understood it to still be the same colour.

[f matthews]

9 hours ago, Mike Starmer said:

Bs.381C No.61 Light Stone is yellow.  It is not the same colour as the current BS,381C No.361 which was introduced in the 1948 edition of the standard despite the use of the same name.   Whilst the Grant model is well built the colour is too brown, the basic British desert colours were not brown, they were initially yellow and cream, later pink.  I devised the Tamiya mixes against my substitute standard, in turn made against an original 1930 swatch.

Light Stone has troubled me for years-none of the paint manufacturers seem to get it correct or even as it looks in b/w photos.  This is a slightly dark photo, but this was using the Tamiya mix (or pretty close to it).  The yellow looked very yellow to me and one can see how it differs from the artist’s interpretation on the box art.

Is this even close to Light Stone?

 

[AgentG]

Yes it is.

 

 

 

 

 

G

[Mike Starmer]

AgentG, sorry to rain on your parade but Shermans were not painted thus in the 22nd A.B. scheme in 1942.  There is only one image showing anything like this scheme.  That only shows a white undulating line, nothing else.  I am aware of artwork which shows such a pattern but the photograph does not confirm that at all.    22nd A.B were in 7th A.D. at the time of Alamein.  The outlined patterning was only used on Grants and Crusaders in 22nd A.B from early to mid 1942.  From September, when Shermans first were issued,  they were plain Light Stone ex-BOW in accordance with the December 1941 regulation.  From October 6th 1942 a specific disruptive pattern was issued which was rigorously applied from then on.   If you wish to have a copy then mail me  mikestarmer18 at gmail dot com. for a copy.

[PF Naughton]

Hi,

I think Agent G's model is of a tank from the 2nd Armored Brigade, not the 22nd.  (See 2nd image down in link below)

 

https://www.how-amps.org/british-m4-sherman-tanks-north-africa

 

Pat

 

PS.  Here is a 2nd copy of the image suggesting that the colors above and below the white line are different shades.

 

http://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2011/09/sherman-ii-direct-vision-tasca-135-part.html

 

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by PF Naughton

[Mike Starmer]

That second link definitely shows a darker infill, my apologies.  I have only previously seen a rather washed out print.  The date is just past the first issue of the painting policy change of 6th October.  It is very likely that this or very few Shermans were so painted.  GHQ tightened up the camouflage regulations from the 6th onwards.  BTW notice how bright the Jeep looks, that is probably Desert Pink.