Hurricane Mk 2c Soviet use pics

[Aardvark]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Metrology is the science of measurements.  Meteorology is the science of studying the weather. 

My mistake,  modern computer-aided means of automatic spelling and autocorrect are to blame.

🤗😁

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It was the latter that Hurricanes were used in postwar.  This is confirmed in Kotelnikov's book.  You may well be right about the photo actually showing the use of one-man AI radar, it would seem to match the required sensors better.

Kotelnikov is most likely right, because he probably used a photo from the archive that had the corresponding signature.Kotelnikov is most likely right, because he probably used a photo from the archive that had the corresponding signature.

But how it is written here

http://www.cao-rhms.ru/history.html

about the history of the development of the meteorological service, in 1946, for meteorological needs, not only meteorological balloons were used in combination with radar, as it was from 1943, but also aircraft.

Hypothetically, it would be logical to use for meteorological research related to the radar, demobilized aircraft that were already equipped with a radar earlier.

Just a guess.

40 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Canopy, thank you, Serge!

In Russian, the word фонарь -"lantern" is used to designate which "canopy" ofcource Google 

translate фонарь  as

"lantern" but not as "canopy" 

, exactly the same is "кабина" Google translated as "cabin" but not as true "cockpit".

😁

 

B.R.

Serge

[Graham Boak]

Kotelnikov does not use the photo, at least in his lend-Lease book.  This was shown online, either this this site or possibly 12 O'Clock High?  However the implication is that a fairly large number (all?) of the surviving Hurricanes were used in this matter, not just a few experimental ones.

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Kotelnikov does not use the photo, at least in his lend-Lease book.  This was shown online, either this this site or possibly 12 O'Clock High? 

During the war and after, there were many trophies, and many trophies were not taken into account in any way according to documents,

of course, such a mess could not suit the leadership.

 

To remedy this situation, a general inventory of aviation equipment and

(I do not remember exactly but it seems in 1947) for all military units, organizations, institutes, etc.  a global list of all aircraft that was on the balance sheet in the USSR was compiled.  Excerpts from this list are often quoted in fragments, but I have not fully encountered it.  Perhaps Kotelnikov simply quotes this list in relation to Hurricane?

Who knows...

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited June 8, 2020 by Aardvark

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Serge

I actually used dictionary, but only checked the word фонар and naturally only found small light, torch etc. Serves me right for being so careless. By the way, кабина translates to Slovene as kabina with exactly the same meaning - cockpit and not cabin. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

18 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

 Perhaps Kotelnikov simply quotes this list in relation to Hurricane?

 

He certainly does use data from such a census, and for more than one date.  March 1946 required 421 Hurricanes to be written off.   This mainly occurred in 1946/47, but more than150 went to the aviation department of the Chief Administration of Hydrometeorological Service.  He doesn't say whether these were part of the 421 or extras.  hen then gives data of additional equipment, cods (M-then a three figure number)  and losses.  1st October 1947 there were 104, 1st July 1948 only 50 because of a lack of spares, 1st January 1949 46 Hurricanes, when the decision was taken to end their service by 1st January.  At this date there were still 10, but all have gone by April.  The book contains 58 photos of Soviet Hurricanes, plus some of the RAF at Vaenga.

[Hairtrigger]

On 07/06/2020 at 18:45, dogsbody said:

From the IWM:

 

Oh, wait! They haven't opened the box yet.

 

 

RAF and Russian airmen manhandle a crated Hawker Hurricane off a rail wagon at Vaenga during a blizzard.

 

 

Hawker Hurricane Mark IIB, Z4017, of No. 81 Squadron RAF, running up its engines prior to a sortie at Vaenga.

 

 

 

 

Sorry! None in Russian markings.

 

 

 

Chris

So the Russians completely re-painted the aircraft and added their own insignia or did they just paint out the RAF markings and add their own on top ?   

I can see this ending up as a fictitious representation....

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Julien
No need to quote all the pics

[Graham Boak]

They simply painted out the RAF markings (assuming this hadn't already been done before delivery) and added their own.  Even, it seems, on those with improved armament.

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Hairtrigger said:

So the Russians completely re-painted the aircraft and added their own insignia or did they just paint out the RAF markings and add their own on top ?   

The photos you are referring to are of 151 wing.  These are some of the very few Hurricanes that would have had their marking painted out in Russia. About 40. Out of nearly 3,000 supplied.

 

Usual Lend Lease practice was for RAF marking to be out by the British, and red stars applied, by the British, before delivery.(there are photos of this being done to Spitfires in Iran before delivery)

The VVS did not repaint lend Lease aircraft in general either, unless they had had repairs.   Post war they did get repainted.

 

 

This is borne out the Hurricane IIc with the tail chute modification, as the British applied stars in standard RAF positions, upper and lower wing, and fuselage,  VVS standard was lower wing, fuselage and tail fin.

 

That said you will often see profiles showing "Soviet overpainting" of roundels, which is wrong.  There are quite a lot of poor VVS Hurricane profiles out there! 

 

Part  of this maybe from one of the most famous photos,. of Z5252,  which was handed over by 151 wing to general Kuznetsov. 

 

 

Now, you always seen the marking as being painted out with Soviet colours, but the underwing looks to have had a thin coat of Sky, the blue outer ring being dimly visible.  As it was the first handed over, i suspect that the repaint was done by the RAF as well, and the colours were British (they had supplies to maintain a wing of planes)

I have bit seen decent photos of the wing underside since the recovery, or the uppers.  Googling now has turned up photos I have not seen before post restoration. I shall investigate further.

 

see for recovery

https://lend-lease.net/articles-en/hawker-hurricane-iib-trop-z5252/

Good little history bit here on Z5252

http://www.calgarymosquitosociety.com/feature13/feature13.htm

[Hairtrigger]

Great info Troy...  Right - thinking out aloud,  I could lose the canons, I have a tropic filter, and decals off a Il2  - spare 100 decal even similar typeface...  Rocket launcher could fabricate, colour call out to go on now....  I have something now.....  Thanks 😊

[Troy Smith]

10 minutes ago, Hairtrigger said:

Great info Troy...  Right - thinking out aloud,  I could lose the canons, I have a tropic filter, and decals off a Il2  - spare 100 decal even similar typeface...  Rocket launcher could fabricate, colour call out to go on now....  I have something now.....  Thanks 😊

Not many had the trop filter, infact, they actually had to make their own.

Hurricane Soviet air filter_zpseti9uhtf by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

now you know what too look for, you can see it on 96 here

 

there are a fair amount of VVS Hurricane photos here

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/USSR.html

 

As always, I'd ignore most of the profiles, some are better than others but if you wanted to do anonymous VVS Hurricane you could just use leftover IL-2 decals. and wing it.

Another good page is this, 78 IAP

http://ava.org.ru/iap/78m.htm

 

The profiles are better,  and this has the IIC profile I mentioned, but I have not seen a photo

 

I can even dig you out a drawing of the VVS armament modifications if you'd like?

[Hairtrigger]

Brilliant Troy.   All ref appreciated.. 

As, you say going to be a bit of a wing it piece in the end. 

I find it strange that the RAF added the stars for the Russians prior to handing them over. 

Wonder if they ever payed us back for them after the war? 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Hairtrigger

If you do not mind that red stars do not representing VVS markings, you could build one of the 351(Yug.) Sqn./2. lovacka eskadrila NOVJ Hurricanes IIC:

 

The one on the top is Hurricane RP IV, used in combat, but the one below her is a regular Hurricane IIC (trop) LD116 White A, flown in early 1944 during squadron's training in Benina. The aircraft's camouflage is DE, MS, AB and markings are standard RAF roundels with red stars superimposed. Just a thought. Cheers

Jure

[Hairtrigger]

Thanks Jure,  That is food for thought.

[Aardvark]

23 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

He certainly does use data from such a census, and for more than one date.  March 1946 required 421 Hurricanes to be written off.   This mainly occurred in 1946/47, but more than150 went to the aviation department of the Chief Administration of Hydrometeorological Service.  He doesn't say whether these were part of the 421 or extras.  hen then gives data of additional equipment, cods (M-then a three figure number)  and losses.  1st October 1947 there were 104, 1st July 1948 only 50 because of a lack of spares, 1st January 1949 46 Hurricanes, when the decision was taken to end their service by 1st January.  At this date there were still 10, but all have gone by April.

Now it remains to wait for that researcher who will climb into the archives of the metrological service and we will see a photo of the Soviet metrological hurricane.  Photos should be at least in archival reports of investigations about the accidents of these Hurricanes.  However, the post-war metrological Hurricane could most likely be repainted and devoid of weapons, which, as I suspect, will make it very difficult to identify their previous military life.

🤗

15 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I can even dig you out a drawing of the VVS armament modifications if you'd like?

6 hours ago, Hairtrigger said:

Brilliant Troy.   All ref appreciated.. 

As, you say going to be a bit of a wing it piece in the end. 

I find it strange that the RAF added the stars for the Russians prior to handing them over. 

Probably at the best pay decal white"60" "For Motherland/For Stalin"

with "Dog"

(Resources:

https://www.modelforce.ru/aviation/articles-1/scale-72/decals-72/hurricane-v-sssr-ot-aml-decals-v-1-72/

)

most colourful variant Hurricane in VVS.

Many decal makers make this option.

6 hours ago, Hairtrigger said:

Wonder if they ever payed us back for them after the war? 

How do I understand the question is addressed to me?

 

...well, if a question is asked, then  need to answer it ...

 

They paid a long time ago, even during the war, with high interest on top, one of the "receipts for payment" in the form of a place of mass execution for 2 years of occupation from 1941 to 1943, about 75,000

civilians ( old people, women, children of different nationalities of Russians,  Greeks, Jews, Gypsies, maybe there is also someone from the descendants of English, Belgian, French colonists)

and 

prisoners of war, are only 500-800 meters from me, I can lay out  here is a photo this place "Mine 4-4bis" about which there is not a word on the English-speaking Internet and very little on the Russian-speaking Internet, is there a need in this topic?

... this is, after all, a forum for modelers and not for making claims on bills ....

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

Guards sergeants Shapkin and Chubatenko load the Ispano guns on the Hurricane IIC. Northern Fleet Air Force, 2nd Guards SAP (Mixed Air

Regiment), 1942.

 

Recourse all photo (until photo decal):

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Crafts/Craft20207-6.htm

Edited June 9, 2020 by Aardvark

[Troy Smith]

19 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

Now it remains to wait for that researcher who will climb into the archives of the metrological service and we will see a photo of the Soviet metrological hurricane.  Photos should be at least in archival reports of investigations about the accidents of these Hurricanes.  However, the post-war metrological Hurricane could most likely be repainted and devoid of weapons, which, as I suspect, will make it very difficult to identify their previous military life.

https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/lendlease/hurricane/hurricane2seat/plator/2seat in service/2seathurricane.htm

 

Quote

Meteorological reconaissance Hurricanes in Soviet Union

According to V. Kotelnikov, disarmed Hurricanes were converted into meteorological reconnaissance airplanes after the war  for the Main Directorate of Hydro-Meteorological Service (GUGMS) departmental air service.  Their Hurricanes were marked with the fuselage codes starting with letter "M".  More than 150 planes were transferred to this service.   For this purpose the planes were equipped with special equipment.  To make fling through the clouds easier, some planes were equipped with radio-compasses.  Photography was usually done by two-seaters - former trainers.
The use of these planes ceased in early 1950, after the number was reduced to 10 due to accidents and failures.
 

This image, from "Hurricane in Foreign Service" by Miroslaw Wawrzynsk,

Meteorological reconaissance Hurricanes in Soviet Union

According to V. Kotelnikov, disarmed Hurricanes were converted into meteorological reconnaissance airplanes after the war  for the Main Directorate of Hydro-Meteorological Service (GUGMS) departmental air service.  Their Hurricanes were marked with the fuselage codes starting with letter "M".  More than 150 planes were transferred to this service.   For this purpose the planes were equipped with special equipment.  To make fling through the clouds easier, some planes were equipped with radio-compasses.  Photography was usually done by two-seaters - former trainers.
The use of these planes ceased in early 1950, after the number was reduced to 10 due to accidents and failures.
 

This image, from "Hurricane in Foreign Service" by Miroslaw Wawrzynsk,

shows a two seater with antenas on the wings; according to the source, the photo was probably taken in 1946, so it's likely a meteo reconaissance plane of the GUGMS.
It looks like a MkIIC with only two cannons,  According to some hypothesis, they could be simple supports for the antenna and other scientific equipments.
The paint scheme looks very weathered white over the remains of a British camouflage (brown/green?), with black fuselage undersurface, white/black underwing roots and wings from another plane (possibly with grey/green base camo and grey undersurfaces). 

 

 

 

[modelldoc]

Some models:

 

Years before this was an Airfix Club kit:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/15232779897/in/photolist-Vf6jw2-s2Wqny-seNL5N-seUGVD-rXnku7-r314SU-q1z2b3-qsvuYV-pq7C7y-qaoLMm-pUCYYr-pRoi98-pd4YLa-f2akgU-eAEUvm-diGMjn-diGNn6

 

And here is one Hurricane from Operation Benedict:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/15369093724/in/photolist-Vf6jw2-s2Wqny-seNL5N-seUGVD-rXnku7-r314SU-q1z2b3-qsvuYV-pq7C7y-qaoLMm-pUCYYr-pRoi98-pd4YLa-f2akgU-eAEUvm-diGMjn-diGNn6

 

And this is my conversion into a two seater observer plane:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/34946377501/in/photolist-Vf6jw2-s2Wqny-seNL5N-seUGVD-rXnku7-r314SU-q1z2b3-qsvuYV-pq7C7y-qaoLMm-pUCYYr-pRoi98-pd4YLa-f2akgU-eAEUvm-diGMjn-diGNn6

 

modelldoc