Hurricane Mk 2c Soviet use pics

[Hairtrigger]

I'm doing a Mister Craft old Heller Hurricane Mk2c and the decals appear poor and inaccurate contemplating doing it as a Soviet marked up Mk2c, but can't find a great deal of reference.

I have some Russian decals various size stars, that would be suitable.

Thoughts, ideas and suggestions welcome.

Troy if you see this some of your fantastic ref colour pics would be very much appreciated.

 

[Troy Smith]

Very few VVS IIc pics, and none really show markings.  http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=23.msg4722#msg4722

Old thread, these are the only pics still up, showing , desert scheme IIc, 

There was another, but apart from being in desert scheme, that was all it really showed.

The Ospery VVS Hurricane aces had a profile of IIc, but no photo.

Its not that hard to change a C to B wing, and there are a lot of schemes for those.

[Hairtrigger]

Many thanks Troy will have a peruse of link....   Wow that was a fast response mate appreciated.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Hairtrigger

Not really VVS combat unit photos, but they are in such a high resolution one just has to post them:

Black bordered red stars on six position ...

... rivet-counter's dream ...

... and I understand this is a stall-recovery parachute.

These are photos of Hurricane IIC KX402, which had been test flown in 1943. I found them on AirPages.ru here where one can also find a full report about testing in pdf. Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

Interesting devices replacing the standard Hurricane control surface actuators - presumably to accurately measure control positions?  Also what appears to be a three-colour scheme on the starboard wing., or at least a replacement wing with some local repair?

[Aardvark]

11 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Not really VVS combat unit photos, but they are in such a high resolution one just has to post them:

 

Black bordered red stars on six position ...

 

... rivet-counter's dream ...

 

... and I understand this is a stall-recovery parachute.

These are photos of Hurricane IIC KX402, which had been test flown in 1943. I found them on AirPages.ru here where one can also find a full report about testing in pdf.

Report also duplicate as text on site.

Most interesting moment:

"II.  Test object

 1. An imported Hurricane IIC No. KX-402 aircraft with a Rolls-Royce Merlin XX engine was subjected to flight research for a corkscrew and dive.

 The main difference between this aircraft and the Hurricane II aircraft tested in a corkscrew in 1942 is the installation of other weapons in the wing consoles: 4 Ispano guns, 20 mm caliber, instead of 12 Browning machine guns, 7.7 mm caliber.

 The installation of new weapons led to an increase in the weight of the aircraft by 170 kg, a deterioration in the aerodynamics of the wing, and an increase in the separation of masses along the wing span.

 These tests were carried out due to the fact that in the combat units of the Air Force of the Red Army there were a number of disasters due to the breakdown of Hurricane IIC aircraft in a tailspin, with the transition from a sharp corkscrew to a plane and the aircraft's failure to dive.

 

III.  Test results

 

 The aircraft’s corkscrew and dive tests began on August 27th, were interrupted on August 28th, resumed on September 10th and completed on September 21st, 1943.

 From August 28 to September 9, the tests were suspended due to the identified need to install an anti-stop parachute on the aircraft.

 In total, during the test 17 flights were made with a total flight time of 12 hours.  Of them: flights on a corkscrew - 15;

 dive flights - 2.

 In total 132 breaks in a corkscrew, 250 turns of a corkscrew and 9 dives were made.

 

Weight data and centering

 

 The program of the first flights and refinement of the aircraft includes:

 Name of options Weight in kg Centering in% SAH Hood angle during braking
 Empty plane 2689 19.5 18 ° 30 '
 Normal flight weight 3480 26.8 23 ° 10 '
 The normal flight weight load consists of:

 Crew 90 kg
 Fuel 314 kg
 Oils 31 kg
 Small arms 248 kg
 Ammunition 76 kg
 Ammunition 76 kg
 Circuit equipment 32 kg
 Total 791 kg
 

The weight of the empty aircraft included: the weight of the anti-tearing installation - 10 kg, as well as the weight of the ballast weight of 30 kg, installed under the upper hood of the motor, in order to balance the counter-counterparts of the parachute  installation.

 

 For the same purpose, the upper armored plate was removed from the aircraft.  Thus, the alignment of the aircraft during the tests was made equal to the alignment of the aircraft at normal flight weight."

 

Thus, this Hurricane 2C was used first in the usual version, then it was modernized by installing an anti-corkscrew

mount and dismantling the upper armored plate in the cockpit.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Julien
Dont quote images in a reply

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Graham

Yes, in report samopisci otkloneniya ruley are mentioned which, I guess, means automatic control surfaces deflection angle recorders. Three top surfaces colours would make for a very attractive scheme, but it is probably just a repaint. Cheers

Jure

P.S.: Serge, would that be the armour behind the pilot's seat? I doubt it is fuel tank armoured cover, as it clearly visible on the photos.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Jure Miljevic
P.S. added

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, Jure Miljevic said:

 

P.S.: Serge, would that be the armour behind the pilot's seat?

I think, yes!

 

Some mentioned about Hurricane IIC in USSR from Russian resources:

 

https://airpages.ru/uk/hursu.shtml

 

"In the summer of 1942, a crisis erupted in the Stalingrad direction.  The 235th IAD Lieutenant Colonel I.D.

Podgorny

was quickly transferred to this area  in the 46th, 191st and 436th IAP.  Later, the 180th IAP was included in the division.  Each regiment had 22-24 Hurricanes, most of which were cannon Mk IIC."

 

https://airpages.ru/uk/hurr2_3.shtml

 

"In total for 1941-1944.  (in 1944 the Hurricanes were discontinued) in the USSR, 3082 fighters of this type were received (including military aircraft received 2834 aircraft).  We were sent at least 210 IIA, 1557 - IIВ, and similar Canadian X, XI, XII vehicles (manufactured by Kennedy Car and Fundry and differing in partly equipped with American equipment), 1009-IIC, 60-IID and 30-type  IV.  Part of the Type IIA fighter was actually a rework of the old Type I aircraft carried out by Rolls-Royce.  In the fall of 1942, we also got one Sea Hurricane I (number V6881), the so-called "catafighter."  This plane was ejected from the board of the Empire Horn transport while covering the ships of the PQ-18 convoy and landed in Arkhangelsk.  37 Hurricanes IIB of the 151st wing were officially transferred to the Soviet side in October 1941. And even before that, on September 22, 1941, a commission of the Air Force Research Institute, chaired by Colonel K.A.  Gruzdev was adopted the first "Hurricane" (number Z2899), delivered directly to our country"

 

"But the main area of application of the Hurricanes in the second half of the war was air defense units.  Hurricanes began to arrive there almost from December 1941, but since the end of 1942 this process has accelerated sharply.  This was facilitated by the arrival from England of aircraft modification IIC with four 20-mm guns "Ispano".  The first of them.  presumably, there was a fighter with the number BN428.  At that time, not a single Soviet fighter had such powerful weapons (the second volley was 5.616 kg).  At the same time, tests of the Hurricane IIC showed that it is even slower than the IIB modification (due to its greater weight).  He was completely unsuitable for fighting fighters, but for enemy bombers it was a considerable danger.  Therefore, it is not surprising that most of the vehicles of this type delivered to the USSR fell into the air defense regiments.  They had, for example, the 964th IAP, which covered in 1943-44.  Tikhvin and Ladoga highway.  If on July 1, 1943, there were 495 Hurricanes in air defense, then on June 1, 1944, there were already 711.  They served there the whole war, on their battle account 252 enemy aircraft."

 

In this way, total in USSR was 1009 - Hurricane IIC.

 

Their know documented  use in:

 

- 235th IAD

(46th, 191st, 436th,180th IAP) with probably  22-24 *4 ~= 88-96 Hurricanes IIC;

 

- 964th IAP.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2020 by Aardvark

[dogsbody]

From the IWM:

 

Oh, wait! They haven't opened the box yet.

 

RAF and Russian airmen manhandle a crated Hawker Hurricane off a rail wagon at Vaenga during a blizzard.

 

Hawker Hurricane Mark IIB, Z4017, of No. 81 Squadron RAF, running up its engines prior to a sortie at Vaenga.

 

 

 

Sorry! None in Russian markings.

 

 

 

Chris

[72modeler]

10 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Oh, wait! They haven't opened the box yet.

At least it's a proper box and not one of those flimsy end-opening jobs! Probably the basic boxing, as I bet it only comes with one choice of markings!

Mike

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, Aardvark said:

But the main area of application of the Hurricanes in the second half of the war was air defense units.  Hurricanes began to arrive there almost from December 1941, but since the end of 1942 this process has accelerated sharply.

air defense units whose abbreviation in latin script is PVO 

 

Which is where most of the Spitfire IX ended up as well (nearly 1,000 of them) in  1945 out of 81 PVO units, 27 flew Spitfire IX's

 

The point is this, they were 2nd line units, and harder to get a press pass to,  as a result official photos are very rare. This would also explain the lack of Hurricane IIc photos, note the VVS got nearly 3,000 Hurricanes (close to 1/5th of Hurricanes built!) just under 2,000 then are IIb and some IIa,  with 1,000 IIc, a a few IID and IV (IIRC 60 IID, and 30 IV) 

 

I had wondered why nearly all VVS Hurricanes in photos were IIa/IIb...,  this explains it.

[Aardvark]

On 6/6/2020 at 4:46 PM, Troy Smith said:

Very few VVS IIc pics, and none really show markings.  http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=23.msg4722#msg4722

I think, on link missed this  photo:

Also on Russian forum Scalemodels.ru have other also "very informative" photo Hurricane IIC in a fur coat:

9 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

air defense units whose abbreviation in latin script is PVO 

I can’t manually translate such volumes of text, so using Google translator I correct some completely ridiculous moments, as an example for the phrase:

6 hours ago, Aardvark said:

counter-counterparts of the parachute  installation.

Google made such a translation:

"counterparts of the porn  installation."

😁😁

naturally, I can miss something.

Ofcource "air defense units" it's a ПВO/PVO (Do not confuse with ПВА/ PVA, which is glue!😁😁😁)

17 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

The point is this, they were 2nd line units, and harder to get a press pass to,  as a result official photos are very rare. This would also explain the lack of Hurricane IIc photos, note the VVS got nearly 3,000 Hurricanes (close to 1/5th of Hurricanes built!) just under 2,000 then are IIb and some IIa,  with 1,000 IIc, a a few IID and IV (IIRC 60 IID, and 30 IV) 

 

I had wondered why nearly all VVS Hurricanes in photos were IIa/IIb...,  this explains it.

It is difficult to determine whether the secrecy regime in the rear was more stringent than at the front-line airfield, but probably the absence photo partially explained by this, but main reason, as for me, the fact that they are mainly engaged in research on the military operations of the first line, modern authors simply do not reach the second line.

 

B.R.

Serge

[Troy Smith]

6 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

Also on Russian forum Scalemodels.ru have other also "very informative" photo Hurricane IIC in a fur coat:

Not a IIC,  look like a IIa/b which has been regunned by the VVS with the Shvak 20mm cannon (long barrel) and the 12.7mm UBT MG (short barrel)

This was  a standard modification  on VVS Hurricanes.

like this

[Troy Smith]

10 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

I think, on link missed this  photo:

this was the image I said was missing, very hard to say much about it, though it is certainly a IIC, serial ending possibly 68 or 69...

Oh for more photos! 

[Learstang]

I'd always wondered about the IIC in Soviet service, as I'd like to do one. It sounds like most ended up with the PVO. Now if I could just find a trustworthy profile (don't laugh, Troy!), or a good photograph of one. I have that very nice Arma Hobby kit of the IIC.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

[Troy Smith]

4 minutes ago, Learstang said:

I'd always wondered about the IIC in Soviet service, as I'd like to do one. It sounds like most ended up with the PVO. Now if I could just find a trustworthy profile (don't laugh, Troy!), or a good photograph of one. I have that very nice Arma Hobby kit of the IIC.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

FWIW, the authors of the Osprey VVS Hurricane Aces in WW2 were said to be working on a Russian book on the Hurricane in VVS service. 

That has a profile, with a serial, of a IIc but says it was regunned by the VVS, which seems odd.

 

As I'm sure you are aware, there is almost  a glut of new photos of VVS GPW photos cropping up on Russian language sites,(see the sovietwarplanes site) 

The VVS Hurricane aces book had 20 photos I'd not seen before,  and I have all the English language books that have these kind of photos,  more turned up in that Helion lend Lease book, so some probably will, with hopefully some more VVS Spitfire photos too.

 

[Learstang]

Thank you for the information, Troy! I have to admit I haven't been looking through the Russian language sites lately like I used to when I was writing my Soviet aircraft books (now I'm working on a book on the Shackleton). I have always wanted to do a book on the Soviet Spitfires, but there was not enough information nor photographs for a proper book. I may combine the Soviet Spitfires and Hurricanes together in one book, but it sounds like I need to start looking at my old sites again for information/photographs. Regarding what you said about that IIC, it does sound strange for the Soviets to down-gun an aeroplane. After all, these are the folks who actually installed a rear gun and gunner on a Hurricane.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jason

Edited June 7, 2020 by Learstang
Additional comments added.

[Aardvark]

45 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Not a IIC,  look like a IIa/b which has been regunned by the VVS with the Shvak 20mm cannon (long barrel) and the 12.7mm UBT MG (short barrel)

Yes, the weaponry of this Hurricane seemed strange to me, but I thought that the user who posted this photo was more competent than the Aardvark  that specializes in jet fighters. So, I'm wrong....

🤗

52 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

This was  a standard modification  on VVS Hurricanes.

I know about this modification, first more complicated complete information about this modernization was published in the "Aсе" aviation magazine in 1990, which lasted only three issues.

🤗

42 minutes ago, Learstang said:

I'd always wondered about the IIC in Soviet service, as I'd like to do one. It sounds like most ended up with the PVO. Now if I could just find a trustworthy profile (don't laugh, Troy!), or a good photograph of one.

The same problem is that in those mentioned by me:

6 hours ago, Aardvark said:

- 235th IAD

(46th, 191st, 436th,180th IAP) with probably  22-24 *4 ~= 88-96 Hurricanes IIC;

after heavy battles near Stalingrad, of all the Hurricanes, there are only a few aircraft that were transferred to other units.

Of course, the likelihood that during these heavy battles someone would take a photo is extremely low.

17 minutes ago, Learstang said:

I have to admit I haven't been looking through the Russian language sites lately like I used to when I was writing my Soviet aircraft books (now I'm working on a book on the Shackleton). I have always wanted to do a book on the Soviet Spitfires, but there was not enough information nor photographs for a proper book. I may combine the Soviet Spitfires and Hurricanes together in one book, but it sounds like I need to start looking at my old sites again for information/photographs.

I don’t specifically follow this topic, but I periodically look through and read the most interesting on 2WW, as for me, on Russian sites there is still nothing particularly interesting on the subject of Hurricane and Spitfire in the VVS / PVO.

The bulk of the information that has now appeared is mainly related to pre-war and military intrigues in the aviation industry, it is very interesting.  But in the West this will not be in demand, since it destroys most of the established myths and stereotypes about spontaneous and unfounded repressions in the Soviet aviation industry.

🤗

 

B.R.

Serge

[Graham Boak]

There 's a fair bit in Kotelnikov's book about Lend lease Aircraft in the Soviet Union, which is a "must read" if you haven't already..    Also, some years ago on Massimo's website, there was a picture and some text on post war use of Hurricane IIc as meteorological aircraft, with some off aerials mounted on or instead of the cannon.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Probably just another exercise in futility as no aircraft markings are visible, but still ... Here is a photo of Soviet Hurricane IIC from 235th IAD, captured by Hungarian troops south of Voronezh in July 1942:

I found it here and in the photo's caption it is stated that there is a name Empire Quill, written under the small light (Под фонарем видна надпись «Empire Quill»). Unfortunately, I cannot see neither the name, nor the light. Serge, can you help us with the translation please? Cheers

Jure

[Graham Boak]

The Empire prefix was given to wartime-built merchantmen of standardised design.  Which may not be relevant...

[Hairtrigger]

Thanks folks some interesting reference - appreciate your input.

[Aardvark]

15 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Kotelnikov's

Just yesterday, the TV Zvezda  channel showed a cycle of films about 2WW bombers.  I had the opportunity to compare the speech of Kotelnikov, Khazanov, Rigmant, Valuev, Rastrenin. Kotelnikov have most live style speech, Rigmant and  Valuev have academic style speech something like as Bill Gunston, Khazanov and Rastrenin feel stressed and constrained in the frame.

15 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Also, some years ago on Massimo's website, there was a picture and some text on post war use of Hurricane IIc as meteorological aircraft, with some off aerials mounted on or instead of the cannon.

Is it exactly metrology?  There is evidence that some PVO Hurricanes were equipped with receivers of the "Redoubt/Редут"

radar system, maybe this Hurricane is precisely the Hurricane with "Redoubt/Редут"?

 

15 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

found it here

😁

Series "War at the Air" it's in fact illegal translate on Russian content, "hi from 90-years, era wild capitalism", resource maybe differences from single resources ("in action", Poland published e.t.c)   or compilation. Now this series doesn’t exist, it can be met either live at second-hand book dealers or on the Internet.

Therefore, I would not rush to call these sources Russian resources!😉😁

Therefore, most likely you will find this photo somewhere in the western source.

15 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Serge, can you help us with the translation please?

"Hungarian pilot on the background of the captured "Hurricane Mk IIС" from the 235th IAD captured in July 1942 south of Voronezh.  Pay attention to the atypical coloring of the nose of the aircraft.  Under the canopy is visible the inscription “Empire Quill”.

 

B.w. on the link have also photo other Hungarian capture Hurricane:

"Hurricane (probably from the 235th IAP) captured by the Hungarians south of Voronezh, July 1942.  The plane received heavy damage and was prepared to be sent to the rear, but the retreat happened too quickly."

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Aardvark said:

 

Photo caption:

"Pilots from the 486th IAP 106th IAD Air Defense, Rostov-on-Don, spring / summer 1943.  The division arrived at this base from Transcaucasia and fought until July 1943, until it suffered heavy losses.  As you can see in the picture, the regiment flew on the Hurricanes Mk IIС."

 

B.R.

Serge

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Aardvark

[Graham Boak]

Metrology is the science of measurements.  Meteorology is the science of studying the weather.  It was the latter that Hurricanes were used in postwar.  This is confirmed in Kotelnikov's book.  You may well be right about the photo actually showing the use of one-man AI radar, it would seem to match the required sensors better.

[Jure Miljevic]

Canopy, thank you, Serge! Graham, my first thought was that Empire Quill could have been a name of a merchantman, involved in transporting the aircraft in question to Soviet Union. I checked the web but, according to Wikipedia (yes, I know), no ship with such a name existed during WWII. Cheers

Jure