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Dornier Do 217-E2 Refurbishment***FINISHED***


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Until I read @Dazzio's build thread just now I did not realise that refurbs were allowed! A year or so back I stripped my ancient Airfix 217 which I bought in around 1964 - according to Scalemates it must have been the 1963 re-boxing of the 1960 kit. I remember getting it from Frizinghall Model Railways shop just down the road from school and lugging it back home on the usual 2 buses - could hardly wait to get started on it, though at that time I doubt I actually knew what it was - probably confusing it with the Do-17.

217

 At the moment it looks like this!

DSC03125-crop

You can see that I used it to test some Humbrol Acrylic RLM72/73 for my Bv 138 in last year's Flying Boat and Seaplane GB. All the bits are there with the exception of the drop tanks and the glazing for the dorsal turret, which will probably turn up later, but if not I have some spare 198 Imp Gall (870L?) tanks from one of my Bf 110 kits and I bought the Falcon canopy set for something a few years ago which includes some for the 217, although they may not fit being intended for the Italeri version - we will see.

 

I rather fancy building it as a KG40 machine with one or two Hs 293, though technically that would be either a Do 217 E3 or perhaps E4 or E5 I believe - need to do some research! I will replace the guns and will have to scratch build an undercarriage, but I did buy some resin main wheels with that in mind. I have the Italeri 217 K1 in my stash so I can copy bits from that hopefullly. Back in the day Airfix were suggesting a solid "olive green" top colour - looks like RLM 71, but as I mentioned in @BobbyC's 217 build thread and @Graham Boak agreed - 72/73 over 65 was far more likely. The alternative would be a night bomber version.

 

Can anybody confirm the actual size of drop tank used? Info on the 217 seems a bit hard to get as it is not the best known of planes.

 

More as and when I start.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

Later,

Managed to find a couple more books, and also realised I have an old "Profile" as well. Looks like the 217 could carry similar large 900L tanks and smaller 300L tanks just like I have in my spares box from various Fujimi Bf110 but whereas Airfix show the tail fin of the 900L tank horizontal, it seems more likely that it was in fact vertical. The fully configured Hs293 carrier was it seems the E5 version though I believe the E2 could in theory carry 2.  In practice it seems to have carried 1 with a drop tank under the Port wing to counterbalance it. The only real external difference between the various E models seems to have been the armament, but I will need to do more research to be certain.

Edited by PeterB
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This is an excellent project Pete, it really is. 

I really like the Dornier Do-17/215/217 family and built several of this kit in the 217J nightfighter configuration, couldn't resist all those guns!

The Do-217's carried some nice camo schemes and whichever you choose will look good.

I am really looking forward to this one Pete!

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Fantastic!

One of my favourite Airfix kits. Seeing you bring one back from the dead is going to be good. The plane has such pleasing lines and there's so many different schemes for it. 

 

I built one a few years back, completely made up scheme, mixed from primary colours as would befit a very early build.  Despite it being nothing special at all, it's one that always makes me smile.

I could bang on about the early pale green plastic vs the later pale blue and all kinds of other collector trivia but I would much rather be watching yours coming together.

 

Here's my take on it...

 

sellers993.jpg

 

Do217.jpg

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Thanks Guys,

 

Tony, yours is the same boxing and looks a lot better than mine ever did, partly because I went with Airfix's dodgy paint scheme. I have been looking in Wm Green's Warplanes of the 3rd Reich, Warpaint and my old "Profile Publication" and as ever there is confusion! They all agree on most points, but not on the armament, and in the Warpaint their own drawings by Richard Caruna do not agree with the text, but I think this is because of the good old "Rüstsätze" - the modification packs which allowed amongst other things. various different forms of weapon to be fitted.

 

So, as the 217 is not a particularly well known type here is a short history compiled from the above sources - if you know it already, 'look away now' as they say on the TV. The 217 was designed as an enlarged and improved version of the Do 17Z, but the early A-C prototypes were not entirely successful so a major redesign resulted in the E model with a much deeper fuselage and a very high wing loading! As with the Ju 88 and He 177 the RLM specified a dive brake so it could be used for dive bombing so Dornier initially fitted a sort of umbrella type system where petals at the tail opened out to provide braking but they proved dangerous causing structural damage and sometimes crashes, so Dornier apparently took to sending each plane out with a "normal" tail unit in a box, and ground crews then simply took the longer dive brake tail cone off and replaced it  - Airfix provided both versions but the long one (see Tony's kit above) got thrown and I only have the short one. Eventually a combination of an improved bomb sight and the inability to find a brake that worked meant that the requirement was dropped. Incidentally, one modification (R19) made use of the tail cone to fit either 1 or 2 remotely controlled MG81Z "Zwilling" as a tail "stinger".

 

There were 6 E versions starting with the E-0 of which only a dozen or so were built and which were used for recce purposes. The first real production version was the E-1 which entered service with II/KG40 in March 1941, followed a few months later by KG2. This was a level bombing/anti shipping machine fitted with 1x 15mm MG151 fixed under the nose for strafing, and single flexible 7.9mm MG15 in each of the nose glazing, ventral position pointing to the rear, in the back of the cockpit canopy and one on each side, the last 3 operated by the radio operator. Next up was the E-3 with armour plating added for crew protection, a flexible 20mm MGFF in the right lower nose glazing and 2 extra MG15 in the rear sides of the cockpit giving the poor old w/op 5 guns to handle - far from ideal.

 

Then came the E-2 which Airfix claim this kit is. This replaced the rear MG15 in the canopy with an electrically operated turret mounting a single 13mm MG131, and another MG131 went in the ventral position, leaving 2 x MG15 in the rear sides of the canopy and one in the nose, though that seems to have sometimes been replaced with a flexible MGFF as in the kit! The MG151 was also retained, though I have to wonder if and when this was upgraded to 20mm as the 15mm version was phased out in I believe 1942. II/KG40 certainly had some E-2 as did KG2 who not only used them in anti shipping mode, but joined in the so called "Baedecker Raids" on the UK in 1942, taking heavy losses. Originally the E-2 was meant to be a dive bomber but I guess that never happened as mentioned above.

 

The last proper version was the E-4 which had slightly more powerful engines in "power eggs" to ease maintenance, and balloon cable cutters on the wing, but was otherwise similar to the E-2, but a few were converted to have the racks and control gear for the Hs 293 glide bomb and they were classified as E-5. KG100 began using this weapon in 1943, but according to "Profile Publications" their efforts were seriously hampered by some clever (and brave) sabotage by French workers, who cut the control cable for the missile steering mechanism in around half the planes in such a way that it worked when being tested on the ground, but failed when in the air due to vibration causing the cable to lose contact.

 

The improved K and M versions started being delivered in 1943 and the E soon disappeared from front line operations. The books suggest that the MG151 and the rear side MG15 were not always fitted, and that whilst the E-5 was modified on the production line to drop the Hs 293, Rüstsätze were available for the E-2, 3 and 4 as well to enable them to carry it. Somewhere on my computer I am sure I have pictures of a II/KG40 E-2 carrying one Hs293 but I have yet to find it.

 

One final point - the markings provided by Airfix are for RH+EJ which is almost certainly a work of fiction as none of the operational units seem to have used that code - in fact the only valid code staring with an R that I can find is for part of NJG 2. However the Warpaint book has drawings of 2 or 3 planes with codes starting in R, but they are all shown as being used to test pulse jets or armament so it is possible that the markings are for some sort of test group. More likely I think is that they are the "radio reporting" code used on a machine being flown on a delivery flight from Dornier, or perhaps for development work. Anyway, I will have a shot at rebuilding/improving the wreckage kit whilst deciding which version and user I am going for. Still fancy KG40 as I have a decal template for the "Ring around the World" badge, so maybe just a standard E-2 bomber to go with the replacement Condor I will be building eventually, together with the Ju 290 from II/Fernaufklarungsgruppe 5.

 

KG40

Fw200 above

 

 

IIFaGr5

Ju290 above

 

Any further info will be gratefully received, as I have only a few sources and as I said they disagree somewhat.

 

Apologies for the ramble.

 

Pete 

Edited by PeterB
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My references agree that the only Geschwader code that started R was R4 used by I and II Gruppe of NJG2. All operational units used a Geschwader code that was one letter and one number (either way round) which supports your idea that the kit marking is either a transport code or a test unit.

 

That's exhausted my knowledge on the subject, I'm just going to sit and enjoy the rest of the refurb now :)

 

Andy

Edited by Foxbat
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Every Luftwaffe aircraft carried a four letter code (Stammkennzeichen or SKZ) which stayed with it throughout its life, and perhaps is closer to the serial number of Allied aircraft then the Werke nummer (usually) on the tail, which was a construction number specific to the factory.  Offhand I can't say whether RH+EJ was a correct Dornier code, but could well be.  They weren't just carried on test or experimental aircraft, but all, unless overpainted by the codes of an operational unit.  At times not even then, particularly on the underside of the wings.

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Thanks Graham,

 

I have seen pics where the SKZ has been overpainted but is still showing through. I suspect Airfix had seen a pic of a machine, perhaps before it left the factory. Warpaint have a Luftwaffe propoganda pic of RH+EL which was apparently circulated during the war and picked up by the UK press, so I wonder if Airfix mis-read it as EJ, or if there were a batch of photos including EJ. Incidentally Warpaint captioned the pic next to it saying all planes were painted in 70/71/65 at the factory, but in the actual text they say 72/73/65 so you have to be careful with that series of books, as indeed with others!

 

Pete

Later,

Just found a pic of RH+EJ - the caption says "all Friedrichshafen built E1 and E2 were test flown over southern Germany - this machine serial 1136 later went to KG2" - so now we know.

Edited by PeterB
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72/73/65 was a dedicated maritime scheme, and, as such, worn by aircraft such as the Ju290 and Fw200. 70/71/65 is a more likely combination for any aircraft intended to operate over England. The difference can be determined by looking at photos - in black and white 70/71 is low contrast and often hard to determine to two greens, where 72/73 is extremely low contrast and its often impossible to tell them apart in monochrome!

 

SD

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Hi SD,

 

This subject came up recently in the 217 J build thread of @BobbyC and all the evidence both myself and @Graham Boak have seen suggests that all 217 E left the factory in 72/73/65. presumably for maritime work, though they may well have been overpainted when used for normal bombing, perhaps when the black unders were introduced. Incidentally, you are quite right about the low contrast, which I postulated was probably why Airfix and various books including Green show a single colour on the uppers. Mind you, Airfix thought that the first 2 issues of their Stuka was all one shade of green as well as I recall.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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A couple of shots from Aircraft of the Fighting Powers, Vol. 2. The fuselage codes look like airbrushed additions to me. The airbrake is interesting.

 

IMG-1967.jpg

 

IMG-1968.jpg

 

IMG-1970.jpg

 

I thought that the very early FROG Penguin kit might throw up something code wise, but I can't find any clear enough original pictures to help. I restored one a while back, the built model came to me without codes. I added codes but they are not based on fact, more what I had to hand!

 

IMG-3501.jpg

 

IMG-3573-Copy.jpg

 

The splinter scheme came from a contemporary copy of The Aeroplane Magazine, the colours mixed up from primary ones as authentics were a bit thin on the ground in 1940, when the kit was released. I like to build in period!

 

do215-5.jpg

 

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Hi Tony,

 

Both the kit and the accompanying photo look like the eatlier Do 215 to me.

 

Posted as GB replied! According to the old saying, does that make us "Great minds" or just "fools"?😁

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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Might be worth adding here that the German markings were painted on with a glossier finish than the surrounding camouflage, which might be why they give the impression of being added to the photo.

 

Never mind Tony, it isn't every day we see a Frog Penguin kit on this site.  Did you get (if you are interesting in such things) the book on the Frog Penguins a year or two back?

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No problem Tony - there seem to have been considerable similarities between the 215 and the early 217 prototypes,  and from above they look almost the same size, but the E had a much deeper fuselage (and radial engines of course)!

 

The more research I do the more I am puzzled why so few were built. Figures vary depending on which book you read, but I will use Green for comparison. He says that there were 364 night fighter/intruder versions and only 1541 bombers/missile carriers, of which I think just over half were "E" types. That compares with the Ju88 of which he says 14676 were built, though that clearly includes a lot of fighter/night fighter and recce variants. Of course production of the Do217 ended a couple of years before the 88 which, we are told, was a truly versatile aircraft, and certainly the fighter variants were far better than the equivalent Do 217 J and N.

 

So how do they compare, and again I am quoting Green's figures for the 217 E and the Ju 88 A bomber which were contemporaries. For a start the double bomb bay on the 217 could hold over 8000lb internally compared with just over 1000lb in the small bomb bay in the much narrower and shallower fuselage of the 88. Of course both could also carry bombs under the wings, and in fact that was where the 88 carried most of its max 4400lb load. In fairness the 217 usually had about the same load as the 88 in one bomb bay and could mount an extra fuel tank in the other for anything other than very short range missions, but it had the largest internal capacity of any of the German twin engined bombers with the exception of the He 177 which was in effect a 4 engined heavy bomber even if the engines were coupled in pairs. Carrying the main load internally clearly should reduce drag unless the deeper fuselage cancelled that out. Green says the 217 with its extra 200HP per engine had a max speed of 320mph at around 17000 ft compared with 290mph for the 88 but of course fuel and bombs would reduce this significantly in both cases. For the record the K and M versions of the 217 were about 30mph faster than the E, but the 188 was only about 20mph faster than the 88A. Final we come to range, and these figures should be taken with a pinch of salt as they depend on both fuel and bomb load. Green says that the 217 E-2 had a max range with "standard internal fuel" of 1430 miles rising to 1740 with "auxilliary fuel" which I guess includes the bomb bay tank but seems a bit short if the 2x900L drop tanks were fitted. By comparison he says the figures for the 88 A-4 were 1112 miles and 1696 miles.

 

Ok, as I said these are Green's figures and other sources no doubt will vary, and it is difficult to make a true comparison, but on the face of it the 217 E-2 was faster, and could carry a heavier bomb load over short distances and a similar one over longer distances, coupled with slightly longer range. I guess that 88 handled better as it was slightly lighter and the longer wing was presumably less heavily loaded, but there is not a lot in it size wise. For whatever reason the 217 was relegated to maritime work and a few desultory night raids over the UK. I would have expected it to be used in Russia but have yet to find any mention of that (KG6 perhaps?).

 

So now you all know as much as I do about the Do 217 E, although my research continues and I will continue to lecture you keep you updated as I do.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

Edited by PeterB
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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Might be worth adding here that the German markings were painted on with a glossier finish than the surrounding camouflage, which might be why they give the impression of being added to the photo.

 

Never mind Tony, it isn't every day we see a Frog Penguin kit on this site.  Did you get (if you are interesting in such things) the book on the Frog Penguins a year or two back?

 

26 minutes ago, PeterB said:

No problem Tony - there seem to have been considerable similarities between the 215 and the early 217 prototypes,  and from above they look almost the same size, but the E had a much deeper fuselage (and radial engines of course)!

 

So now you all know as much as I do about the Do 217 E, although my research continues and I will continue to lecture you keep you updated as I do.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

 

 

 

I do have a copy of the book Graham,a couple of models from my collection make an appearance in it. Peter Van Lune did a first class job with the book, I can highly recommend it, but then I would say that, wouldn't I?

 

Thanks Pete and Graham, until this thread started I wasn't aware there was a 215! I always assumed the 217 came directly from the 17.   Assumption being the Mother of all You Know Whats and all that.

 

Group Builds always add to my knowledge, it's one of the main reasons I enjoy them so much.

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May be wrong Tony, but I think the one recovered for the RAF Museum off the Goodwin Sands a few years back is actually a 215! I was aware of their existence as an export version of the 17Z with inline engines for Yugoslavia, and knew the Luftwaffe hung on to a few for recce purposes, but it now seems there were quite a few more around than I thought, including a night fighter version the 215 B-5.

 

Pete

 

 

Edited by PeterB
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The 217 was also a lot more expensive, slower to build and required the rarer high-performance engines.  It was heavier, clumsier and more fragile on landing.  Plus the Ju.88 was much more versatile, also being highly successful in the dive bomber, reconnaissance and heavy fighter roles.  

 

The prototype and early 217s looked even more like the 215, but the bigger wing and revised nose contours give them away.  There are some engine differences too, but that's not too surprising.

 

I'm pretty sure that the Goodwin Sands aircraft is indeed a Do.17 not a 215.  They are pretty sure of the individual identity, just not 100% yet.  It was the 17

K that was exported to Yugoslavia.  The 215 was ordered by the Netherlands and Sweden took a strong interest, but I think only Hungary got some, and not many.  There is a recent Classic book on the Do.215 which is absolutely superb - much better than their latest one on the 17.

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Thanks Graham,

 

Green actually says offered to Yugoslavia but they deceided it was no great improvement over their existing K models - my mistake. Can't remember where I read the Goodwin Sands one was a 215 but obviously a 17Z.

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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21 hours ago, PeterB said:

. Mind you, Airfix thought that the first 2 issues of their Stuka was all one shade of green as well as I recall.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

The second and third issues were all green topsides. The first issue was a bit more colourful!

 

IMG-2012.jpg

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Hi Tony,

 

I seem to remember painting my first one dark brown for some reason - did not have many paints in those days - my first few kits were painted in oil paint from tubes, together with Indian Ink! I can only recall 3 toolings including the latest one, but they did re-jig it a few times with new parts - I was thinking of the 1957 one and a  1978 one, together with a reboxing in the mid 1990's it seems looking at Scalemates.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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Ok, so now I am about to start putting this back together but the question is whether or not to "upgrade" it. The undercarriage was greatly simplified and it seems from the instructions it was meant to be "retractable". As far as I can see Airfix only provided the main legs, and completely missed out the various other supporting struts, but I should be able to sort that out as I have both the Do 17Z and Do 217K kits as yet unbuilt so I can use them as templates. I also have several drawings showing the layout.

 

The cockpit is more of a problem. It too is very basic and given the amount of glazing it could stand being improved but I have very few pics of the inside, mostly of the night fighter version. I will keep digging but if anybody has pics I would be interested in seeing them!

 

In the meantime I have painted the interior RLM 02 and started cleaning up the joints.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

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