Hurricane IV , 42 Sq Burma, 1945

[Troy Smith]

looking for something else, found this, which I have not seen before

Quote

(Library and Archives Canada Photo, MIKAN No. 4283438)

Hawker Hurricane Mk. IV (Hurri-bomber), flown by these Canadian pilots in the Burma Theatre of War, 28 Feb 1945.  F/L F.H. Sproule and Warrant Officer H.E. Johnny Walker.  These two Canadian Hurri-bomber pilots were among the busiest men on the Burma front.  Frederick Howard Sproule was from Alberta.  He was later promoted to Squadron Leader and received the DFC in October, 1945.  Both he and Johnny Walker were pilots with the RAF's No. 42 (F) Squadron based at Onbauk, Burma, when the photo was taken.  Squadron Leader R. E. Stout was the commanding officer.  The Hurricane Mk. IV they are shown with here was flown by their squadron between October 1943 and June 1945.  They also flew the Hurricane Mk. IIc between April and June, 1945.  The squadron converted to the Republic (P-47) Thunderbolt Mk. II in July 1945.

the background is interesting,  the photo is fascinating, as Mk.IV photo are fairly rare,  and I have not encountered a 42 sq Hurricane IV before.

(assuming caption is correct) 

 

some points worth noting.

 

L-R

CM/1 Spinner, also stopped in right place to show slot in backplate. 

N under nose.

Applique  armour under windscreen showing up very well, as well as the 'beefed up' windscreen bars

Personal emblem under cockpit.- any thoughts?

Reasonable view of the armoured radiator.

Bomb racks, I know the IV has the universal wing,  but is more often seen with rockets or 40 mm guns. 

The numbers painted on the bombs are of note, some kind of 'stock' reference, one for @Selwyn ?

No doped patches over sighting 0.303 port.

 

I'll put a @dogsbody as he might wish to ask Carl Vincent about this, and perhaps if there are more from this series?

 

Hope of interest.

[72modeler]

18 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

some points worth noting.

...and the armored radiator fitted to the Mk IV and V!

Mike

[Troy Smith]

hmm, sticking 42 Sq RAR Burma into google has been interesting...assume the above was from a press visit as

 

 

And now I search, yes, i remember Mk.IV's with bomb racks..  from 42 Sq..

 

ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN THE FAR EAST, 1941-1945.. © IWM (CF 262) IWM Non Commercial License

 

 

 

 

ROYAL AIR FORCE OPERATIONS IN THE FAR EAST, 1941-1945.. © IWM (CF 263) IWM Non Commercial License

also film from the above?

Quote

An air attack on Tiddim Road by No. 42 Sqn RAF Hurricane IIs, October-November 1944. Ground scenes are possibly filmed at Palel, and could include Hurricanes of No. 34 Sqn. Hurricane "Q" shown taxiing is possibly 100+ mission veteran LB710 of No. 42 Sqn. This is how looked fighter-bomber operations from airfields around Imphal: Imphal Main, Kongla, Tulihal, further to the south Wangjing, and even further to the southeast Sapam and Palel.

 

[Troy Smith]

7 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

...and the armored radiator fitted to the Mk IV and V!

Mike

I had mentioned it.....

 

25 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Reasonable view of the armoured radiator.

I was more taken by the CM/1 spinner,  which seems to be quite rare, but fitted almost at random on Mk.II's and Mk.IV's

[72modeler]

3 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I had mentioned it.....

So you did! My bad!

Mike

[Mark Joyce]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

Personal emblem under cockpit.- any thoughts?

 

Hope of interest.

It looks like a maple leaf to me, which would make sense since both are from Canada.

 

A very interesting photo, so thanks for sharing.  I'll have to watch those videos later when I have more time.  I actually find it quite extraordinary that this airplane lasted over a year and a half; quite a long time for one under combat conditions, especially in a harsh environment.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Troy Smith]

5 minutes ago, Mark Joyce said:

I actually find it quite extraordinary that this airplane lasted over a year and a half; quite a long time for one under combat conditions, especially in a harsh environment.

I suspect this is an inaccurate caption, I nearly commented on how new the plane looked,. unless it's just been overhauled and resprayed, but even then i doubt it.  Without a serial or identity we just don't know.

The film clips are short, but their poster has posted some other interesting short clips, I presume edits out of longer newsreels.

11 minutes ago, Mark Joyce said:

It looks like a maple leaf to me, which would make sense since both are from Canada.

good call.  I have not bothered to look closely as yet.

 

cheers

T

[Selwyn]

9 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

looking for something else, found this, which I have not seen before

 

the background is interesting,  the photo is fascinating, as Mk.IV photo are fairly rare,  and I have not encountered a 42 sq Hurricane IV before.

(assuming caption is correct) 

 

some points worth noting.

 

L-R

CM/1 Spinner, also stopped in right place to show slot in backplate. 

N under nose.

Applique  armour under windscreen showing up very well, as well as the 'beefed up' windscreen bars

Personal emblem under cockpit.- any thoughts?

Reasonable view of the armoured radiator.

Bomb racks, I know the IV has the universal wing,  but is more often seen with rockets or 40 mm guns. 

The numbers painted on the bombs are of note, some kind of 'stock' reference, one for @Selwyn ?

No doped patches over sighting 0.303 port.

 

I'll put a @dogsbody as he might wish to ask Carl Vincent about this, and perhaps if there are more from this series?

 

Hope of interest.

The painted on number is just a local build up number. 

just a note RAF aircraft do not use "bomb racks", only used on american aircraft.   RAF aircraft have "bomb carriers," may sound pedantic but useful to know when doing searches on the net.

 

Selwyn

[Harry Lime]

8 hours ago, Mark Joyce said:

It looks like a maple leaf to me, which would make sense since both are from Canada.

Was also my first thought when I looked at it. Although one of the chaps mentioned is said to have come from Alberta, the other isn't mentioned. The leaf motif is very similar to that of the Toronto Maple Leafs hockey team, maybe one of them was a fan? A blue leaf would also negate any concerns about a red emblem on a plane in that theatre?

 

Mark.

[dogsbody]

I've emailed Carl regarding the photo.

 

Troy, how did you find this photo? I've been through the L&AC's site many time but have never seen this one before. It doesn't come up when looking for Hurricane pictures.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Troy Smith]

10 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Troy, how did you find this photo? I've been through the L&AC's site many time but have never seen this one before. It doesn't come up when looking for Hurricane pictures.

By chance Chris, I was looking for Canadian Hurricane pics for @stevej60  for his kit you built as kid Airfix Hurricane, he wanted a II with rockets, i linked up a Canadian trainer.

I only found it as i had seen a photo I'd been sent on the image hunt, (and asked not to  share) on this site

http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warplanes-3-the-second-world-war-and-postwar-hawker-hurricane_686.html

 

and when looking down the photos, spotted the Mk.IV, which i'd not seen before myself, and had various interesting details which were worth sharing.  And also means that one you know what the details are, like the CM/1 spinner,  you note them when seen again. 

 

cheers

T

 

[dogsbody]

Ah! Yes. Harold's pages. I've been through his stuff before but never noticed that particular photo before. I was looking primarily for early Mk.I Hurcs at the time.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Chris

[Smithy]

The footage that showed the bombing attack profile and attack was wonderful Troy, many thanks for posting that.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Smithy
Typo

[dogsbody]

Okay! I've heard back from Carl and here it is:

 

" This is RCAF photo PL-60253, formerly UK-19183. The number indicates that it was among the last batch of photos taken by RCAF PR people of RCAF activities in                 Southeast Asia. The caption is, obviously, retroactive (note the tenses) with a good deal of supplementary information added. The total accuracy of this I cannot vouch for.

 

 I attach a scan of my own print of this photo plus a tweaked zoom of the symbol underneath the cockpit. I am unable to make any kind of a guess as to what the writing says. It is possible that one of these gentlemen was a Toronto Maple Leaf fan which is certainly justification enough for his being exiled to Burma.

 

 From 1942 through 1945 occasional publicity teams went through Southeast Asia doing stories and taking photos of RCAF personnel in this theatre. A large number of these photos were of the standard “standing in front of/by/sitting on an airplane” school of photography. It is worth noting that there is no reason to assume in most cases that the aircraft concerned had any connection with the chap(s) in the photo, though I would suspect that the one in the posted photo did.

 

  Back in the 1970’s I would, occasionally, purchase one of these photos if the aircraft had interesting nose art or for some other impulsive reasoning. I have located and scanned a couple of the Hurricane prints. There may be others but they are not easily locatable. I attach them, not because they may have much relevance to the subject photo, but just to show the kind of thing I’m talking about.

 

 Attached photos

                1.            My scan of the photo concerned.

                2.            Zoom of the symbol under the cockpit.

                3.            No further information at the moment.

                IV.          RCAF photo PL-18132. No further information. The last three digits of the serial are 432.

                V.            Zoom of the nose art. While the pilot is certainly Canadian the words seem to be in some other language (Maori?), but what do I know?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[StevSmar]

46 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Okay! I've heard back from Carl and here it is....

Chris

Thanks for the additional info @dogsbody, it's a great photo. I enjoyed seeing it on FB last week for the first time.

 

I'd kill for a good photo of the armoured radiator. The MkIV had a standard MkII radiator with the attachment points for the armour, and associated fuselage strengthening, but I can't find a decent zoomed in photo of what it looks like. I might have to actually spend real money to get a scan from the IWM of the AA&E photo of the MkIV that they have...

(The MkV is obviously a different radiator).

Edited June 3, 2020 by StevSmar
poor grammar, lack of intelligence

[Troy Smith]

40 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

 

 

 

HW229 - 79/327 MU Swung when taxying and hit obstruction, Red Road, 1.4.44

 

40 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

HV432, IIb, 135/ 2 IAF,  Engine cut; bellylanded near Mir Ali, Waziristan, 25.3.44

 

Air Britain.

[Troy Smith]

6 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

The MkIV had a standard MkII radiator with the attachment points for the armour, and associated fuselage strengthening, but I can't find a decent zoomed in photo of what it looks like.

 

posted here 

by @Wince

Nearly what you want, but maybe worth asking him if he has any more pics, or can get some at a later date, as I presume the museum is shut at the mo.

 

11 minutes ago, StevSmar said:

The MkV is obviously a different radiator

How is the Mk.V different? 

 

HTH

[Wince]

I will dig out the rest of the images and zoom them in. Taken on iPhone do not the best but I have a few of the radiator and the wing that will be useful. Yes the museum is closed at the moment so will be a while until I can get back in. 

[Max Headroom]

I found this on the IWM site - a nice sideways view of the radiator. Definitely more angular than the ‘normal’ type.

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205124353

Trevor 

 

[Graham Boak]

It the standard radiator with wrap-around armour.  I'm not sure whether it is more angular in the front-on view.  The Mk.IV was intended to get the more powerful Merlin 27, which presumably would require a larger radiator with reshaped intake, but on this site it was claimed that they all went to Mosquitos and the Mk.IV had to cope with the standard Merlin XX.  Sad if true.

[Pete M.]

11 hours ago, dogsbody said:

Okay! I've heard back from Carl and here it is:

 

" This is RCAF photo PL-60253, formerly UK-19183. The number indicates that it was among the last batch of photos taken by RCAF PR people of RCAF activities in                 Southeast Asia. The caption is, obviously, retroactive (note the tenses) with a good deal of supplementary information added. The total accuracy of this I cannot vouch for.

 

 I attach a scan of my own print of this photo plus a tweaked zoom of the symbol underneath the cockpit. I am unable to make any kind of a guess as to what the writing says. It is possible that one of these gentlemen was a Toronto Maple Leaf fan which is certainly justification enough for his being exiled to Burma.

 

 From 1942 through 1945 occasional publicity teams went through Southeast Asia doing stories and taking photos of RCAF personnel in this theatre. A large number of these photos were of the standard “standing in front of/by/sitting on an airplane” school of photography. It is worth noting that there is no reason to assume in most cases that the aircraft concerned had any connection with the chap(s) in the photo, though I would suspect that the one in the posted photo did.

 

  Back in the 1970’s I would, occasionally, purchase one of these photos if the aircraft had interesting nose art or for some other impulsive reasoning. I have located and scanned a couple of the Hurricane prints. There may be others but they are not easily locatable. I attach them, not because they may have much relevance to the subject photo, but just to show the kind of thing I’m talking about.

 

 Attached photos

                1.            My scan of the photo concerned.

                2.            Zoom of the symbol under the cockpit.

                3.            No further information at the moment.

                IV.          RCAF photo PL-18132. No further information. The last three digits of the serial are 432.

                V.            Zoom of the nose art. While the pilot is certainly Canadian the words seem to be in some other language (Maori?), but what do I know?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

That last aircraft looks as if it may have NZ Maori wording under the figure..Kapai Te Terore (Puffing up a storm) or Kapai Te Tupeka (Tobacco is good) taken from an old photograph caption from the 1860's of an old Maori woman smoking. Both translations are listed for the photo caption! The first would be very apt for a Hurricane!

 

Pete M.

[Harry Lime]

18 hours ago, dogsbody said:

It is possible that one of these gentlemen was a Toronto Maple Leaf fan which is certainly justification enough for his being exiled to Burma.

I take it Carl's a Habs fan then??? Some great extra images he's come up with too.

 

Mark.

[72modeler]

20 hours ago, StevSmar said:

I'd kill for a good photo of the armoured radiator.

Mk IV and Mk V radiator photos are hard to find, and there are some photos of Mk V's I have seen that look like they have an even larger radiator than the Mk IV, although it might just be that the inlet is larger on the Mk V, as it was reputed to have overheating issues. The is also an excellent and very accurate Mk IV armored radiator from Gray Matter in 1/32 scale that accurately portrays the armor, which evidently was bolted onto the radiator housing and could be removed. (Not intending to endorse the manufacturer or the distributors- just presenting as a modeling reference.) See the linked photos. Hope this helps, but I recall Troy and I discussing this on a topic related to the Mk V.

Mike

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/grey-matter-aviation-gmab3215-hurricane-mkiv-armoured-radiator--947933

 

https://store.spruebrothers.com/product_p/gmab3215.htm

 

There are only two surviving Mk IV's that I am aware of, and while they are genuine Mk IV's both have had the bolt-on  armor plate removed, but the housings are correct MK IV units. KZ231, which is airworthy and used to belong to the Fighter Collection in the UK, but is now based at Antwerp, Belgium,  and LD975 on display in Belgrade, Serbia.

 

I seem to recall seeing photos of a surviving Mk IV radiator that was complete with the armor, but can't remember where I saw it; if I can find it again, I will post it here.

 

 

 

 

[Wince]

All I have of brums mk iv 

 

 

 

Forgive the terrible quality. iPhone isn’t great. I will get better post lockdown 

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Wince said:

Forgive the terrible quality. 

not perfect, but a massive improvement than anything previously available!   A VERY valuable addition the the Hurricane information on here, no apologies needed.

Does this help @StevSmar  

4 hours ago, 72modeler said:

There are only two surviving Mk IV's that I am aware of, and while they are genuine Mk IV's both have had the bolt-on  armor plate removed, but the housings are correct MK IV units. KZ231, which is airworthy and used to belong to the Fighter Collection in the UK, but is now based at Antwerp, Belgium,  and LD975 on display in Belgrade, Serbia.

and the one in the Think tank in Birmingham, England...painted as a BoB plane ..Grrrrr....

Quote

Hurricane Mk IV KX829 is on display at the Thinktank, Birmingham Science Museum, painted as P3395 as flown by Flight Lieutenant Arthur Clowes DFM of No. 1 Squadron RAF

see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_Hawker_Hurricanes

Quote

I seem to recall seeing photos of a surviving Mk IV radiator that was complete with the armor, but can't remember where I saw it; if I can find it again, I will post it here.

There was a photo here of Hurricane Mk IV KZ191  privately owned in Berkshire.

Posted by Steve, but the pic has gone, IIRC showed the frame, cockpit armour, and the armour radiator shell.

 

OK,  this is the best of the few I could find

 

the armour is in front of the radiator, and the side strips as shown in    @Wince  photos are visible on the radiator bath.

 

The 5 spoke wheel are weird...

Back to KX829, for a long time displayed in appropriate markings,  and quite possibly with radiator armour.  

The fact of the BoB markings is stupid,  has been discussed before,  most folks wouldn't know DFS for TLS if you asked,  so it's pointless...

You want dramatic stick 8 rockets or 40 mm cannons on... now they are dramatic.

Oh, KX829 saw squadron use as well.....  

Air Britian

KX 829 137/286/1606 Flt/639/595/631/ To Loughbourough College 8.3.46

 

PS if you google up Hurricane KX829 there are 60'a B/W photos in what look like overall silver at LOUGHBOROUGH COLLEGE

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1458899

ah, the other Hurricane there is a Sea Hurricane IB, I assume later the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane.

 

 

and this...ah, tarted up in fake 6 Sq markings....

 

 

from the chap in camo I suspect this is from around 1990 when KX829  was taken off to be tarted up as a BoB plane....

You'll notice the Spitfire in Birmingham is not in fake BoB markings.....

 

I have a 1970 Veteran and Vintage Aircraft book, and has a pic of KX829 at the Birmingham museum then, markings as above, minus the JV.

Note, the JV-I appears to be Red (look at roundel centre) and I suspect the above is desert scheme?