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The MiG-19 mysteries


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As the new boxing of KP MiG-19 will contain a Polish MiG-19S option I have started the discussion with Jan Polc concerning this (IMHO some "what if") scheme,

as all Polish military sources deny the presence of any fighter (i.e. not the radar-equipped interceptor) MiG-19s in the Polish Air Force units. However the deeper I dug the picture becomes more misty. Maybe somebody at the BM could put some more light on the subject.

So let's start from the beginning. All known sources give the number of 2172 as the total of MiG-19s manufactured in the USSR and Czechoslovakia. Of these 103 are to be made in Aero Vodochody factory, but according to the Yefim Gordon book their serials were: 850001-850013 (13 a/c), 950101-950106 (6 a/c), 050201-050220 (20 a/c), 150301-150320 (20 a/c), 150401-150430 (30 a/c) and 150501-150515 (15 a/c). This totals 104 Czech-built a/c - where's the truth?

Then there's a book by N.V. Yakubovich that gives the details of Russian production. According to him the Gorky (No.21) factory manufactured 258 MiG-19 a/c, 60 MiG-19S, 436 MiG-19P and 369 MiG-19PM. The Novosybirsk (No.153) factory added 143 MiG-19 and 623 MiG-19S to those. This makes altogether 1889 a/c, so where are the missing 179 (or 180) planes?

The c/n of Gorky factory consisted of eight digits (tt-ff-bb-ii), where tt indicates the a/c type, ff the factory number, bb the production block (batch) and ii - the individual number within the block. Thus 62210737 is the MiG-19P (a/c type 62), made in Gorky (21), block 7, a/c no.37.  The MiG-19S was type 61, MiG-19PM was type 65, but what was the early (with elevator-fitted tailplanes) MiG-19? These aircraft were not exported and no serial numbers can be traced outside the USSR.

Then the batch numbers: there are 10 blocks known for the -19S, 11 blocks for the -19P and at least 11 blocks for the -19PM. Why "at least"? Because after the confirmed 65211113 Czech -19PM there are four mysterious (also Czech AF) PMs listed as 65211919, 65211943, 65211944 and 65211948. However it seems impossible to fit 19 batches into the production run of just 369 a/c while the 436 a/c-long run of the -19P consisted of only 11 batches. Still more mysterious is fitting of 10 blocks into the 60 a/c-long production run of the MiG-19S, keeping on mind that the Block 8 consisted of at least 89 planes (the Czech AF 61210889 confirms this). So again - there must have been much more -19Ss manufactured in the Gorky factory than Yakubovich states.  

The c/n of Novosybirsk factory consisted of just seven digits (bb-fff-ii), with middle three occupied by the factory code (153), surrounded by the two-digit block number before and two-digit individual a/c number behind it. Thus Bulgarian -19S c/n 0815396 indicates the 96th a/c of Novosybirsk-built Block 8. Here there's no "a/c type" code and we can suspect that the block number runs consecutively for both the MiG-19 and -19S with maximum five first blocks allocated for the 143 "plain" -19s (with old type tail) and at least eight next blocks (as 0615350 is the first -19S exported to Bulgaria) allocated for the -19S (1315302 and 1315307 are the last two Albanian examples). But why "at least" again? Because Yefim Gordon states 1615323, 1615326, 1715322 and 1715325 as the aircraft delivered to Poland. However not confirmed by any Polish documents...

At the moment I managed to gather >500 c/ns of the MiG-19s used by the East European countries. Unfortunately nothing is known about the c/ns of the planes sold to Egypt (160 a/c), Syria, Iraq, China, Indonesia, Cuba, N.Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan (ca.200 altogether). Any data about them would enlighten the matter further.

Same applies to the Czech total (103 or 104?), Soviet total (1889 or 2069?), the actual number of production blocks in both Soviet factories, a.s.o.

Any help will be warmly appreciated

Cheers

Michael 

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7 hours ago, KRK4m said:

At the moment I managed to gather >500 c/ns of the MiG-19s used by the East European countries. Unfortunately nothing is known about the c/ns of the planes sold to Egypt (160 a/c), Syria, Iraq, China, Indonesia, Cuba, N.Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan (ca.200 altogether). Any data about them would enlighten the matter further.

 

Can't help about Poland, but I do no think Syria ever operated the MiG-19 in Syrian colors. When (if) they were delivered, than to the United Arab Airforces , so the (military) union Syria had with Egypt that time...  

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Found this:

 

"Poland used the MiG-19PM's in the Polish Air Force. The fighters were delivered in 1958 and 1959 and remained in service until 1974. In total, 33 aircraft of both types were bought."

 

And here is the source:

 

http://muzeumlotnictwa.pl/zbiory_sz.php?ido=63&w=a

 

the Polish Aviation Museum in Cracow.

 

modelldoc

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10 minutes ago, modelldoc said:

Found this:

 

"Poland used the MiG-19PM's in the Polish Air Force. The fighters were delivered in 1958 and 1959 and remained in service until 1974. In total, 33 aircraft of both types were bought."

 

And here is the source:

 

http://muzeumlotnictwa.pl/zbiory_sz.php?ido=63&w=a

 

the Polish Aviation Museum in Cracow.

You wrote it now in the discussion where the topic starter lives in Krakow and the former (?) employee of the Krakow Aviation Museum!

😉😁😁

8 hours ago, KRK4m said:

Any help will be warmly appreciated

Michael, I’ll look at what I have on this subject, maybe Podrepnyi has something in "Stalin’s Jet Break".

Despite the fact that I have one MiG-19PM walkaround in my asset, and I plan to photograph another MiG-19S someday, I paid little attention to this aircraft.

The MiG-19 is a slightly underestimated aircraft in the USSR, so there was no serious research about it.

 

But maybe the answers to your questions are in the new MiG encyclopedia?  I don't know.

 

B.R.

Serge

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KRK 4M: Far be it for me to even approach your knowledge of the subject, but two sources I have, including the history of the Polish Air Force 1945-62, cite 36 deliveries of the P/PM.  Lotnictwo z Szachownica #14 contains an interesting article on the history of the MiG-19P / PM in Polish service.  Maybe you have it?  The author (Sankowski) considers various possible acquisition schemes proposed by other Polish aviation historians (e.g. M. Mikolajczuk and J. Liwinski), and concludes that 36 aircraft were delivered to Poland in three batches and two versions: 12 MiG-19Ps of the 7th series (62-07xx), 12 MiG-19Ps of the 10th series (62-10xx), and 12 MiG-19PMs of the 9th series (65-09xx).  The article only lists 30 airframe side-numbers (boczny numery), however.  The author speculates that Poland acquired the MiG-19 P/PM to fill a "hole" in its air defense net, and the radar-equipped MiG-17PF didn't deliver the needed performance.  That would rule out acquiring the S, because the S was clear weather/VMC only, right?  These did not last long in service--only until 1975.  Some were later transferred to Bulgaria, if I'm not mistaken.  Anyway, perhaps you've already had a conversation with Sankowski about it and concluded that he's wrong.

Edited by TheyJammedKenny!
Factual errors in original
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9 hours ago, KRK4m said:

So let's start from the beginning. All known sources give the number of 2172 as the total of MiG-19s manufactured in the USSR and Czechoslovakia. Of these 103 are to be made in Aero Vodochody factory, but according to the Yefim Gordon book their serials were: 850001-850013 (13 a/c), 950101-950106 (6 a/c), 050201-050220 (20 a/c), 150301-150320 (20 a/c), 150401-150430 (30 a/c) and 150501-150515 (15 a/c). This totals 104 Czech-built a/c - where's the truth?

Then there's a book by N.V. Yakubovich that gives the details of Russian production. According to him the Gorky (No.21) factory manufactured 258 MiG-19 a/c, 60 MiG-19S, 436 MiG-19P and 369 MiG-19PM. The Novosybirsk (No.153) factory added 143 MiG-19 and 623 MiG-19S to those. This makes altogether 1889 a/c, so where are the missing 179 (or 180) planes?

Production of MiG-19 family aircraft at USSR aircraft plants according to MAP statistics (USSR Ministry of Aviation Industry):

20200601-010215.jpg

Table published in book E.Podrepnyi "Stalin’s Jet breakthrough".

0_445809535095105a669e0af7b1d57b6e_13693

But....but reference "2" on page is a quote from Aviation History magazine, 1999 # 2 article "First Soviet Supersonic" author article.....E.Gordon.

 

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited by Aardvark
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40 minutes ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

KRK 4M: Far be it for me to even approach your knowledge of the subject, but Lotnictwo z Szachownica #14 contains an interesting article on the history of the MiG-19P / PM in Polish service.  Maybe you have it?  The author (Sankowski) considers various possible acquisition schemes proposed by other Polish aviation historians (e.g. M. Mikolajczuk and J. Liwinski), and concludes that 36 aircraft were delivered to Poland in three batches and two versions: 12 MiG-19Ps of the 7th series (62-07xx), 12 MiG-19Ps of the 10th series (62-10xx), and 12 MiG-19PMs of the 9th series (65-09xx).  The article only lists 30 airframe side-numbers (boczny numery), however.  The author speculates that Poland acquired the MiG-19 P/PM to fill a "hole" in its air defense net, and the radar-equipped MiG-17PF didn't deliver the needed performance.  That would rule out acquiring the S, because the S was clear weather/VMC only, right?  Anyway, the MiG-19 did not last long in Polish service--only until 1975.  A few were re-exported to Bulgaria, right?  Anyway, perhaps you've already had a conversation with Sankowski about it and concluded that he's wrong.

 

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21 hours ago, modelldoc said:

"Poland used the MiG-19PM's in the Polish Air Force. The fighters were delivered in 1958 and 1959 and remained in service until 1974. In total, 33 aircraft of both types were bought."

And here is the source: http://muzeumlotnictwa.pl/zbiory_sz.php?ido=63&w=a      the Polish Aviation Museum in Cracow.

It's ALMOST true, as these words were written some 20 years ago when not all the archives were available for the civil researchers. Now we have complete data of the 36 MiG-19P/PM a/c used by the Polish Air Force - look at the post #50 here:

The problem is that Yefim Gordon gives c/n of 27 a/c more as delivered to Poland and nobody can find neither their presence in the Polish documents nor any photos of them.

20 hours ago, Aardvark said:

You wrote it now in the discussion where the topic starter lives in Krakow and the former (?) employee of the Krakow Aviation Museum!

Actually I worked there from March 1987 till January 2014, including 13 months of acting as the C-in-C

19 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

KRK 4M: Far be it for me to even approach your knowledge of the subject, but two sources I have, including the history of the Polish Air Force 1945-62, cite 36 deliveries of the P/PM.  Lotnictwo z Szachownica #14 contains an interesting article on the history of the MiG-19P / PM in Polish service.  Maybe you have it?  The author (Sankowski) considers various possible acquisition schemes proposed by other Polish aviation historians (e.g. M. Mikolajczuk and J. Liwinski), and concludes that 36 aircraft were delivered to Poland in three batches and two versions: 12 MiG-19Ps of the 7th series (62-07xx), 12 MiG-19Ps of the 10th series (62-10xx), and 12 MiG-19PMs of the 9th series (65-09xx).  The article only lists 30 airframe side-numbers (boczny numery), however.  The author speculates that Poland acquired the MiG-19 P/PM to fill a "hole" in its air defense net, and the radar-equipped MiG-17PF didn't deliver the needed performance.  That would rule out acquiring the S, because the S was clear weather/VMC only, right?  These did not last long in service--only until 1975.  Some were later transferred to Bulgaria, if I'm not mistaken.  Anyway, perhaps you've already had a conversation with Sankowski about it and concluded that he's wrong.

Wojtek Sankowski is the serious researcher and I don't say he's wrong - the only fault of his summary is that only 11 (not 12) a/c of the 622107... block are documented, whereas there are 13 (not 12) a/c of the 622110... block known. Anyway the total of 24 -19Ps and 12 -19PMs is correct.

On the other hand the info about selling the Polish -19s to Bulgaria is fake (it's interesting that even Bulgarian Wikipedia follows this urban legend). All Polish -19s were used deep into the 1970s and then scrapped (minus the engines, that were sold back to the USSR). Gordon publishes the c/ns of all Bulgarian a/c and no one matches the c/ns of the Polish aircraft.

19 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Production of MiG-19 family aircraft at USSR aircraft plants according to MAP statistics (USSR Ministry of Aviation Industry):

Table published in book E.Podrepnyi "Stalin’s Jet breakthrough".

But....but reference "2" on page is a quote from Aviation History magazine, 1999 # 2 article "First Soviet Supersonic" author article.....E.Gordon.

This is exactly the same MAP table I referred to when talking about 1889 MiG-19s manufactured in the USSR. As 1889 (USSR) and 103 (Czechoslovakia) makes 1992 the question is where are the missing 180 a/c to make the 2172 a/c total found in most sources?

Probably the info about the production batches will enlighten the matter seriously.

Cheers

Michael

 

 

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11 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

the info about selling the Polish -19s to Bulgaria is fake

That is good to know!  I know that Bulgaria was the poorest of the WP members, and also the most outdated in its front-line equipment, so to me it seemed a reasonable supposition.  Probably a separate topic for a different time, but would be curious to know whether Poland or other WP countries transferred second-hand equipment to each other, and whether there was a re-export licensing process for this from the USSR.  Anyway, thanks for your comments as always.  

 

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59 minutes ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

That is good to know!  I know that Bulgaria was the poorest of the WP members, and also the most outdated in its front-line equipment, so to me it seemed a reasonable supposition.  Probably a separate topic for a different time, but would be curious to know whether Poland or other WP countries transferred second-hand equipment to each other, and whether there was a re-export licensing process for this from the USSR.  Anyway, thanks for your comments as always.  

 

The poorest? I'm not sure. They had 60+ MiG-19s while GDR had 24 and Hungary just 12.

Moreover Bulgaria was the only (save the USSR) WarPac user of the MiG-25 Foxbat...

Thus some appearances can be deceptive 😉

Cheers

Michael

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12 hours ago, KRK4m said:

Gordon publishes the c/ns of all Bulgarian a/c and no one matches the c/ns of the Polish aircraft.

This is exactly the same MAP table I referred to when talking about 1889 MiG-19s manufactured in the USSR. As 1889 (USSR) and 103 (Czechoslovakia) makes 1992 the question is where are the missing 180 a/c to make the 2172 a/c total found in most sources?

Michael, what are these other resources?  I just looked at Yakubovich yesterday, he also refers and gives this MAP table.  Thus, in two Russian sources the information coincides!

12 hours ago, KRK4m said:

Probably the info about the production batches will enlighten the matter seriously.

Need waiting this book:

https://store.alexv.ru/

https://zen.yandex.ru/media/lystseva/mig-polet-skvoz-vremia-5e6775950da66b2a8138b243

Yes, it’s "expensive - rich", and shipping 6 kg will cost a lot, but the team of authors in Russian aviation circles has more authority than Yakubovich and Gordon.

9 hours ago, KRK4m said:

Moreover Bulgaria was the only (save the USSR) WarPac user of the MiG-25 Foxbat...

It’s just that in other countries of the Warsaw block there were airbases of the USSR   unlike Bulgaria!  To create an air base for the sake of the tasks that the three MiG-25 solved, to keep personnel there, was devastating even for the USSR.

 

But return to Poland MiG-19S.

 

Yakubovich write:

"First supersonic Poland fighter was MiG-19S, show society republic July 22, 1959

, then the MiG-19P and MiG-19PM interceptors entered service."

P.272. N.Yakubovich "Mikoyan combat aircraft" Moscow "Yauza""EXMO" 2009 ISBN 978-5-699-34100-9

 

Thus, you need to see Polish sources for July 22, 1959 (+ a week or a month), or newsreels for this period, maybe this mysterious MiG-19S will be there.

 

My hypothesis next - it's was Soviet MiG-19S with Poland insignia aircraft showing society  after then Poland insignia deleted, Soviet insignia return applied. Everyone is happy! 😉😁

But it's just my personal hypothesis!

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

Edited by Aardvark
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Fascinating info. Am planning on making the 1/32 Trumpeter MiG-19PM in Polish markings, so what are the Bort number options, and was the red or blue nose radome parts myth and they were really green?

 

Love the Polish markings - remind me of Battenberg cake! 

 

Cheers

 

Tony 

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8 hours ago, tony.t said:

so what are the Bort number options, and was the red or blue nose radome parts myth and they were really green?

Tony.T: I have a list of 30 side numbers ("Bort" in Russian) used by the Poles, according to Wojtek Sankowski.  Ps: 721, 723-730, 734, 739, 1008, 1011, 1012, 1015, 1017, 1021, 1023-25.  PMs: 904, 905, 908-912, 914, 916, 917.  You could probably extrapolate a few missing numbers in the sequences.  The numbers seem to have invariably been painted red.  Radomes should have been green--the same green that you see on RF-transparent surfaces of the MiG-21 and other contemporaneous Soviet designs.  Polish fin flashes/roundels are known as the "Chess Board." 

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11 hours ago, tony.t said:

red or blue nose radome parts myth and they were really green?

I don’t know about Polish planes, but the radar-transparent coating on radome earlt Soviet aircraft  there was different shades of gray

(Mikoyan experimental fighter)

and grayish blue (Yak-25) this can be seen in color photos of that period. Then came the era of green radome cover, from MiG-23 added white cover on MiG-23S which, due to good visual visibility in flight, has been replaced with dark gray on late MiG-23 modification.

 

At the same time, it should be noted that on some early experimental aircraft the radome cone was made of polystyrene, on aircraft such as Su-15 (what I personally felt with my hands) this is a composite material, something like fiberglass.

 

The use of non-typical paints not recommended by the manufacturer can lead to malfunction of the radar (data distortion, false targets), therefore, it is hardly approved by the manufacturer.

 

Therefore, such a non-standard coloring is possible either at your own peril and risk ... or on a plane whose radar does not work.

 

Nevertheless, one black-and-white photo of the Soviet MiG-23 is known in which a two-tone color of the nose cone is visible, the photo was taken from the rear-side view.

 

Red colour it's probably error identification when the color of the protective cone covering the air intake of MiG-21 type aircraft, the Su-7/17 family on the ground, was taken as the color of the radar.

 

B.R.

Serge

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Serge: thanks for the info.  On some of our early designs, such as the F-86D "Saber Dog," the nose radome tended to bleach out in the sun and turn various reddish and tan shades.  You can see this best in photos of the Yugoslav Air Force examples, which were not hangared.  

 

In addition to green, I guess some shade of gray is possible for early Soviet aircraft.  Didn't know that, but it makes sense.  

 

As for the S, I wouldn't rule out the Polish pilots doing some flight familiarization on the type at Krasnovodsk, USSR, but according to Sanko, they flew MiG-15UTIs and then went straight to the MiG-19P.  This makes sense because there would have been a need to familiarize the pilots with the aircraft's radar system, and I imagine this took up a lot of their time.  

 

What the heck--just build a MiG-19S in Polish colors.  It'll look great!

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42 minutes ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

In addition to green, I guess some shade of gray is possible for early Soviet aircraft.  Didn't know that, but it makes sense.  

With all desire, it is unlikely that anyone will be able to call the color of the cone of this I-3U ( in fact it's single engine  MiG-19 heavy class conception.... unsuccess

Mikoyan’s attempt to play on the future Sukhoi field) green:

i420-7.jpg

😉😁

It's no modern photo it's archive photo.

 

Yes, about blueish grey shadow nose cone Yak-25 have some doubt:

yak25-1.jpg

551aa684f28d7.jpg

but it’s definitely not green! 😉😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

"What the heck--just build a MiG-19S in Polish colors.  It'll look great!"

 

Only Soviet "sailor"grey-light blue red "27" RB-66 killer...as for my!

😁😁😁

 

 

Edited by Aardvark
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On 6/2/2020 at 5:04 PM, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Tony.T: I have a list of 30 side numbers ("Bort" in Russian) used by the Poles, according to Wojtek Sankowski.  Ps: 721, 723-730, 734, 739, 1008, 1011, 1012, 1015, 1017, 1021, 1023-25.  PMs: 904, 905, 908-912, 914, 916, 917.  You could probably extrapolate a few missing numbers in the sequences.  The numbers seem to have invariably been painted red.  Radomes should have been green--the same green that you see on RF-transparent surfaces of the MiG-21 and other contemporaneous Soviet designs.  Polish fin flashes/roundels are known as the "Chess Board." 

Exactly - until the 1980s the side numbers on the Polish jets were always red and the radomes were always green (like on the -17PF and -21s too). The a/c missing within the Sankowski list above were 736, 1007, 1018, 1027, 1029, 902 and 906. Why seven and not six? Because 725 was Czech, not Polish. And be careful with the "extrapolating" c/ns, as some of them were allocated to the Czech (722, 725, 731, 733, 735, 737 and 738), Romanian (1009, 1013 and 1014) and East German (903, 907, 913 and 915) aircraft. 

Cheers

Michael

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Thanks Michael.  I had no idea that side numbers were so strictly controlled among the WP forces.  Well, I guess the Soviets needed a way to keep track of them in wartime--that gives me a glimpse into how crazily centrally managed the entire bloc was.

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20 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Thanks Michael.  I had no idea that side numbers were so strictly controlled among the WP forces.  Well, I guess the Soviets needed a way to keep track of them in wartime--that gives me a glimpse into how crazily centrally managed the entire bloc was.

Oh, no - it's not the case. The reason is much more prosaic - all Warpac countries used last digits of the factory c/n as the military s/n ("bort").

Usually it was 3- or 4-digit, although the USSR used 2-digits (but in various colours), while Romania and Albania in some periods also used the variant reduced to 2 digits.

Thus when the 9th block of MiG-19PMs was built wholly for the WarPac users (probably with some equipment deleted), the 50 c/ns were as follows:

65210901, 903, 907, 913, 915, 920, 924, 925, 926, 928, 929 and 930 - 12 for the East Germany

65210902, 904, 905, 906, 908, 909, 910, 911, 912, 914, 916 and 917 - 12 for Poland

65210918, 919, 921, 922, 923, 942, 943, 944, 945, 946, 947, 948, 949 and 950 - 14 for Czechoslovakia

65210927, 931, 932, 933, 934, 935, 936, 937, 938, 939, 940 and 941 - 12 for Bulgaria

Cheers

Michael

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KRK4M: I wanted to test an idea with you, at the risk of your shooting it down.  Another thing to consider with the MiG-19PM and MiG-17PF in Polish service was the challenge presented by (what I consider) the relatively low level of formal education among the Polish Air Force officer corps, combined with the rapid expansion in the force.  The History of Polish Military Aviation 1945-1962 (J. Zieliński, M. Mikołajczuk) lays out in facts and figures the "crash-course" nature of 1950s technical training needed to bring the cadre up to speed.  The authors are overly diplomatic (in my opinion) in describing root causes.  I would blame it on the nature of the state itself, which punished returning ex-RAF types--many of whom had completed prewar training at Dęblin--and only out of necessity (post-1956 and ascent of Gomulka) allowed a few of them to return to active flying.  This would have complicated and certainly delayed the officer corps' mastery of new materiel, such as the MiG-19P/PM, and later, the MiG-21.  Open to your criticisms, of course, but I think that personnel issues, as much as economic ones, limited the type and number of aircraft that could be brought into service.

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3 hours ago, KRK4m said:

Usually it was 3- or 4-digit, although the USSR used 2-digits (but in various colours),

No, Michael, no, Generally 

in Soviet AF after WW2 and before 1955 was and 3 digital and 4 digital number!

4 digital number  was rare and applied mainly to the MiG produced by the Novosibirsk plant 153:

649786_2d319d2180c4e2a07ce7ebd02a0e1083.

649784_fcdbba7231d0ab28bc964f453d02891b.

From movie in colour:

649791_7cf81b74cd813a264d11c795b3fd0f8b.

3 digital number  no was rare and applied on many MiG-15, 17, La-15 and Yak-25.

https://aviaforum.ru/threads/mig-15-bortovye-nomera-cha.8157/page-3

After 1955 

4 digital number go on and 3 digital number may could be found on training aircraft

(photo training MiG-21 with 3 digital number a lot on the Internet)

training units.

 

But You a right if talk only about MiG-19 case.

23 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Well, I guess the Soviets needed a way to keep track of them in wartime--that gives me a glimpse into how crazily centrally managed the entire bloc was.

In fact, certain developments in the digital economics, based on the experiments of the Allende government in Chile, in the USSR were in the mid-70s, but they were not perceived by the elderly leadership of the USSR as the economic reforms of Kosygin, ultimately this led to the so-called "  period of stagnation " and the collapse of the USSR that followed.

Separate elements of the system were introduced in the army, the KGB and the police, but these were just separate elements of the system.

1 hour ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

I would blame it on the nature of the state itself, which punished returning ex-RAF types--many of whom had completed prewar training at Dęblin--and only out of necessity (post-1956 and ascent of Gomulka) allowed a few of them to return to active flying.  This would have complicated and certainly delayed the officer corps' mastery of new materiel, such as the MiG-19P/PM, and later, the MiG-21

How does a Polish officer who fought in WWII on the side of the RAF differ from a Polish officer who fought in WWII on the side of the USSR, until ideology?

It seems to me that the transition from piston to jet aircraft always eliminates some of the pilots for many reasons, as well as the transition from a subsonic jet to a supersonic one.

The pilot has always been a piece, expensive "product", the preparation of which has always been very expensive, which incidentally applies to doctors, engineers, and many other professions that require high qualifications.

 

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited by Aardvark
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On 6/3/2020 at 4:40 AM, Aardvark said:

With all desire, it is unlikely that anyone will be able to call the color of the cone of this I-3U ( in fact it's single engine  MiG-19 heavy class conception.... unsuccess

Mikoyan’s attempt to play on the future Sukhoi field) green:

i420-7.jpg

😉😁

It's no modern photo it's archive photo.

 

Yes, about blueish grey shadow nose cone Yak-25 have some doubt:

yak25-1.jpg

551aa684f28d7.jpg

but it’s definitely not green! 😉😁

I'm long don't remember where I see MiG-17P with grey radome....remember! It's was movie (of course about

vile capitalist spies trying to steal Soviet military secrets!😁) "Light blue arrow":

vlcsnap-00005.jpg

Whoever says that the radome is green, it's time to either check your computer’s monitor or an ophthalmologist!😁

At the same time, you can see the very notorious stub of red!

 

B.R.

Serge 

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