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Any idea what these AMT numbers are?


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5 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

 

I don't doubt of what is written on manuals, but seems that the star on this plane  was not wiped out if it is still visible there. Besides it seems that they didn't this on the other stars or numbers, that look as if they were covered by new paint. 

Well, I suppose it's pale and shabby there, and this is how the residue from washed off paint looks

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On 22/08/2021 at 17:44, Mike said:

Do I detect a hint of pique entering the discussion? :hmmm: I've been forced to read all this back and forth to ensure it hasn't, but I'm starting to think people are getting a little snippy.  If that's the case, step away from the keyboard and have a cold shower.

Some people need to heed Mike's advise here.

 

I have now had to wade through the whole thing as well. This is now the second WWII Russian colour thread thats gone south. If members dont heed the advise from @Mike there will be consequences going forward. 

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As a VVS enthusiast (not a very authoritative one, but still...) I feel very uncomfortable when the conversation gets touchy and requires, let's say, moderatorial redirection. There have been debates about RAF and USAAF colours as well, but it too often seems to be VVS that gets heated enough to attract warnings. Sadly, it also attracts trolls who like to jump in and comment about "minefields", which is just a cheap-shot irritant. Please, let's keep it civil. I have no authority to ask that, but, like they say in The Hive, "Bee Kind"! (Those who don't have the blessing of 5-year-old granddaughters may not recognize my literary allusion.)

 

John

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2 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

This thread has collected very interesting facts. It would be a pity if it has to be suppressed because of one or few trolls. I ask to the moderators to leave it intact, eventually limiting to delete the aggressive posts.

The thread will stay open, however if there are anymore aggressive, threatening or plain old nasty messages such as there have been it will be closed and the posters dealt with. This is now the second WWII Soviet colour thread which has gone well and truly south. Please no more. The moderating team is small and we dont have the time to read and monitor all this, we rely on members to tell us when its going wrong, not to just fan the flames already there.

 

Thx

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Another interesting note: the inner face of the engine cowling panels of the Yak-3 in Bourget appears painted with an orangeish brown.

Andrey has identified this paint as glyptalium primer 138A for cowlings and engines. Some red inscriptions are inside. 

Sorry, I can't share photos online. 

Massimo

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Ciao!

 

Glyptal primer is needed for nitrocelluse paints, say AMT type. This is not only for aircrafts but for general use, too. I have picked it from Soviet time general metal painting handbook (T Varendi, Metallpindade värvimine, 1969 and 1978 editions). So for example AMT-7 light blue should have Glyptal 138 under it.


For aircraft metal surfaces the specification was ALG-1 primer and A-28m (or g) for the blue undersides.

 

Below hopefully (link works, hot linking not) picture of Albom Nakrasok primers. It may be my photo originally (I have identical photo, not a scan!), but the link is from EP's Hobbyvista site:

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Research/1948/1948-scan-alg.jpg

 

I have no idea which one or whether both systems were used in the French museum Jak-3. Anyone making statements should elaborate more how their identification has been made.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Edited by Kari Lumppio
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi all,
I've added a new page on the site Soivietwarplanes: it offers links to translations of some documents of Soviet era about the painting of planes.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/translations/translations.html
There are  translations of tables from Soviet manuals and a translated scan of the pages of Albook Makrasok of related to paints for planes.
The most part of the research and all the translation work is by Daniele Righi.
Should anyone have suggestions, they will be welcome.

Regards
Massimo

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Hello Massimo,

 

those scans are excellent. Thank you for the trouble and for sharing them at your site. There are interesting paint chips visible, as "same" colours were also used on later Soviet aircraft; like in IL-28s. I wonder, whether they were using the same paints...

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Hello Massimo,

 

somehow Il-28R popped to my mind at first. It has all interior surfaces painted with various shades of yellow. For example in pilot's and navigator's cockpits the colour is a very bright yellow (like A-6 in table II). Only those surfaces not covered with the green insulator blanket are painted with olive green. Rear fuselage camera bay and engine gondola interiors are painted with dull yellow (like chamoise).

 

In our museum example (that was transferred to the museum shortly after it arrived from a major overhaul in the USSR) the bomb bay doors and main landing gear bays were painted with orange that might be close to MV-4 in table XX.

 

About WWII paint colours then: I'm wondering about the paints used in the Airacobra now on display at Hyrylä.

- there are rectangular areas on both sides of the nose painted with black. Actually the paint looks like "black olive" and it is crudely applied with a paint brush (the brush strokes are clearly visible). Close inspection shows that either a yellow number 7 or a letter Z has been painted over.

- the sides of the rear fuselage has been painted with a green colour. Today it looks like grey-green and the same painting is clearly visible on the Airacobra that was salvaged from Lake Martjaur. Closer inspection shows olive green paint residue in the panel seams.

- the white circles on wing undersides are crudely painted over with a paint brush using a dull green or blue-green paint

 

Do you have more information about the paints used? And why the rear fuselage was painted hastily with green paint on both examples, as the US "Stars and Bars" was neatly covered (you can see the "edges" caused by the masking tape) in the USA with Olive Drab?

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

 

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Does this Kobra have any reinforcing plates added to the rear fuselage? As you probably know, some Kobras were reinforced here to avoid the fuselage deformation that occurred with some manoeuvres, such as getting out of a spin. When these plates were added, there was repainting.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

Edited by Learstang
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Hello Jason,

 

that's the interesting thing; the Airacobra on display here in Finland doesn't have the reinforce plates neither on fuselage sides nor on the fin leading edge. The one salvaged from a lake in Russia has them both.

 

It is also interesting that the "Russian" example has been lying under water since the war whereas the "Finnish" example has been kept indoors since the war. And yet this grey-green area is visible on both fuselages.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Hello Jason,

 

here are some photos:

spacer.png

 

Note the "grey-green" paint on both fuselages. On the right the Airacobra has been towed to the shore. As you possibly know, the remains of the pilot were still in the cockpit...

 

spacer.png

 

In this photo the "grey-green" looks different. Look especially the lower part of the reinforcement plate; it looks like "black-green". There is also a clear demarcation line running along the fuselage. The darker areas were buried in the silt.

 

spacer.png

 

And finally the "Finnish" example. It looks like the "grey-green" paint has been applied by brush. The paint layer is thin and yet it completely covers the original Olive Drab. The paint has also chipped away. Along the hatch edges the colour looks like "olive-green"; like AMT-4. This colour doesn't show at all in B&W wartime photos of "26". I think that despite two very different colours were used, they have a close reflectivity value.

 

What do you think?

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Hi Antti, hi Jason,

I suspect that the grey-green color is a degraded look for the A-24m enamel, used instead of AMT-4 on metallic surfaces. Around the outline of the panel, it has adsorbed the grease of hands and returned more glossy and more similar to its original look. 

 

Interesting to know about the yellow and orange shades inside the Il-28. Unfortunately I can only think to ALG-1 zinc chromate retouched with other shades of yellow. Perhaps the manual of the plane is available somewhere and says what are the original paints. 

Orange bomb bays... perhaps it was to put it into evidence for other planes or ground observers, just as the red and yellow of air brakes and landing gear doors of other planes (ex. Su-27)?

 

Regards

Massimo

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I think you're correct about the grey-green colour on the Kobra, Massimo. I notice it looks more like the Soviet green exactly where it would have been handled, for example the screw holes.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

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Thank you Massimo and Jason,

 

Is Soviet Green something like Humbrol sells with the name Russian Green (number 114 IIRC)? I have a NCS colour value for the bright olive green used on MiG-3s. I think we were discussing about it earlier and it was probably Massimo who "labelled" my sample as AMT-4. Does A-24m look similar?

 

I'm still wondering, why this rather large area was painted over. Originally there was a standard blue-white "Stars and Bars". It was then neatly masked with tape and the "Bars" were over sprayed with Olive Drab. The circle was painted with white and the original US star was re-painted with red using a plywood mask(?). At some point the Soviets added the white frame around the star and a thin red line surrounding it. Then they clearly painted the remainder of the white circle with green colour. War time photos show a very neat and tidy paint job.

 

Judging from photos, that green colour chipped away and in the 60s the white circle was very much visible. The Russian white paint stands out as it was (and is) more like cream or light tan coloured. Same goes for the Russian red. Both Russian paints are porous and they look thick but translucent. During the restoration museum staff applied olive green artist's oil paint by brush to hide the white circle. Probably they were mimicking the harsh paint work found on wing under surfaces which are in original condition showing an olive green paint to hide those white circles.

 

About the Il-28: Different components are completely painted with different yellows. For example in the cockpits a "golden yellow" has been used but inside engine gondolas a duller shade (different paint?) is used. There are no visible re-touches made with a different shade of yellow. The bomb bay doors are neatly painted with slightly brownish orange. No masking has been used as there are orange spray marks elsewhere in the bomb bay.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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Yes, Antti, here where I refer to Soviet Green, I mean the olive-tinted green that was the colour of AMT-4 (used on wooden and mixed aircraft) and A-24m (used on all-metal aircraft). I believe, and Massimo can correct me here, it corresponds to the 4BO Green used on ground vehicles and helmets.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

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Dear friends,

   As long as I know, the plane in the antiaircraft museum is a restoration of three different airplanes:

"Bell P-39 Airacobra is a single-seat mid-engine US WWII fighter. A total of 9,584 Airacobras were produced during the WWII. 4,905 of these were P-39Qs of which 3,291 were delivered to the Soviet Union as a part of the Lend Lease Program. The type has never been in use with the Finnis Air Force, even though the Finns got three war booty ones in fairly good condition. The wings of the 44-3255 that landed in Inkeroinen on June 17th 1944, the fuselage of the 44-2664 found in Aunus and the fin and the rudder from aircraft on the Norwegian fells were assembled together under restoration.

Aircraft code: N/A

The aircraft is on the show of the Anti-Aircraft Museum at Hyrylä in Tuusula. The aircraft is restored."

   Maybe other modelers that have the luck of being in Finland, could ask the museum what parts of the airplane are still in their original colors.

Regards

Daniele

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On 9/7/2021 at 9:58 AM, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi all,
I've added a new page on the site Soivietwarplanes: it offers links to translations of some documents of Soviet era about the painting of planes.
http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/translations/translations.html
There are  translations of tables from Soviet manuals and a translated scan of the pages of Albook Makrasok of related to paints for planes.
The most part of the research and all the translation work is by Daniele Righi.
Should anyone have suggestions, they will be welcome.

Regards
Massimo

 

5 hours ago, righidan said:

Dear friends,

   As long as I know, the plane in the antiaircraft museum is a restoration of three different airplanes:

"Bell P-39 Airacobra is a single-seat mid-engine US WWII fighter. A total of 9,584 Airacobras were produced during the WWII. 4,905 of these were P-39Qs of which 3,291 were delivered to the Soviet Union as a part of the Lend Lease Program. The type has never been in use with the Finnis Air Force, even though the Finns got three war booty ones in fairly good condition. The wings of the 44-3255 that landed in Inkeroinen on June 17th 1944, the fuselage of the 44-2664 found in Aunus and the fin and the rudder from aircraft on the Norwegian fells were assembled together under restoration.

Aircraft code: N/A

The aircraft is on the show of the Anti-Aircraft Museum at Hyrylä in Tuusula. The aircraft is restored."

   Maybe other modelers that have the luck of being in Finland, could ask the museum what parts of the airplane are still in their original colors.

Regards

Daniele

 

Thank you, Daniele - it's very much appreciated!

 

John

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5 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi Antti, 

so, the bomb bay doors of Il-28 were painted orange after the build of the plane? What is the color of the bomb bay? 

Regards

Massimo

 

Hello Massimo,

 

originally the bomb bay was painted with yellow (still visible on the walls and the roof). Orange colour was applied during the last factory overhaul at USSR. It seems like they wanted to mark all those parts and components with orange, they had re-placed or overhauled.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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5 hours ago, righidan said:

Dear friends,

   As long as I know, the plane in the antiaircraft museum is a restoration of three different airplanes:

"Bell P-39 Airacobra is a single-seat mid-engine US WWII fighter. A total of 9,584 Airacobras were produced during the WWII. 4,905 of these were P-39Qs of which 3,291 were delivered to the Soviet Union as a part of the Lend Lease Program. The type has never been in use with the Finnis Air Force, even though the Finns got three war booty ones in fairly good condition. The wings of the 44-3255 that landed in Inkeroinen on June 17th 1944, the fuselage of the 44-2664 found in Aunus and the fin and the rudder from aircraft on the Norwegian fells were assembled together under restoration.

Aircraft code: N/A

The aircraft is on the show of the Anti-Aircraft Museum at Hyrylä in Tuusula. The aircraft is restored."

   Maybe other modelers that have the luck of being in Finland, could ask the museum what parts of the airplane are still in their original colors.

Regards

Daniele

 

Hello Daniele & Co.,

 

you are absolutely right; This Airacobra was put together using fuselage and wings of two different airplanes that landed on the Finnish side on 17.6.1944. Fin and rudder were purchased from Norway in the 80s, as Air Force Depot had put aside a fin and a rudder of a Yak-7! Original Airacobra tail section parts were scrapped.

 

The Airacobra is still in its original paint (90+ % of the airplane). The inner leading edge of the Starboard wing, fin and rudder and fuselage underside below the cockpit were built out of scratch and were painted with modern aircraft paints. Some parts of the internal structure (inspection hatches inside the engine bay) were also replaced with new parts. The instrument panel is a replica as the original was used during the war. As I explained in my earlier post, the national insignia received some touch up during the restoration.

 

All the surfaces were vacuumed, washed with water and cleaned during the restoration. The idea was to "freeze" the airplane's ageing; not to create a modern interpretation of an old Airacobra.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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