Any idea what these AMT numbers are?

[Jochen Barett]

13 minutes ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

I don't know if the question is for me, but I can answer that the method of Kari is good: once seen the scan of the chip of Humbrol 150 aside the AMT-4, one can start to find the Humbrol can and choose if use it as it is, correct it or make a mix of other paints resembling it.

In this case Humbrol 150 is out of stock, this can give difficulty.

+++

Humbrol called 150 "Waldgrün" or "Forest Green" and claimed it would match FS 34127 ( https://www.modellparadies.com/humbrol-enamel-waldgruen-matt-farbnummer-150--4247.html two tins left!), so just in case anybody wonders what it looks like.

 

Googleing AMT-7 I found https://www.planesinprofile.com/colours (closing the circle to a certain Massimo Tessitori and the work of Erik Pilawskii ) showing a nice palette comparing chips derived from relics and AKAN paints.

 

In the olden days one would have had a Kodak color chart to include it in photographs where color accuracy played a role. So the person in the lab could tune the print in such a way that the colors look right, and knowing the standardized color chart any viewer coul "calibrate" his/her Mk-1 eyball to compensate any color shift in the print induced by lighting, film or lab or ageing iof the print or light when viewing the print (today it is the "monitor", not the print).

[Learstang]

That's an interesting page - thank you for posting the link!

 

Regards,

 

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Quote

Googleing AMT-7 I found https://www.planesinprofile.com/colours (closing the circle to a certain Massimo Tessitori and the work of Erik Pilawskii ) showing a nice palette comparing chips derived from relics and AKAN paints.

Great page indeed. But, who is the author?

 

Quote

Humbrol called 150 "Waldgrün" or "Forest Green" and claimed it would match FS 34127 ( https://www.modellparadies.com/humbrol-enamel-waldgruen-matt-farbnummer-150--4247.html two tins left!), so just in case anybody wonders what it looks like.

 

So, not exactly 34102 as written by Orlov

 

 

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

 

Quote

Some parts of the fuselage (some might know that the wing is not from the same aircraft) have a paint stack of seven layers in places.

 

I think to see a still readable cyrillic stencil on the darker blue. I see also that the number 25 looks painted over the same darker blue layer but under the light blue one.

 

 

There is an interesting movie on the plane of Bouget where the  left side was left of the colors of the postwar restoration, and the right side was stripped to show the original paint. 

 

https://www.museeairespace.fr/aller-plus-haut/collections/yakovlev-yak-3/

 

Anyway I was in contat with the chief of the restoring team ten years ago, I have to look for his email and ask for details. 

[Jochen Barett]

58 minutes ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Great page indeed. But, who is the author?

+++

The "about" page https://www.planesinprofile.com/about-1 claims "Anton Petrov".

 

What probably appeals most to me is the "palettes" showing a latitude for the colors used - or maybe sonething else (like the way he is showing his references and/or the fact he asks for a tiny bit of arstistic license).

 

[Learstang]

It is interesting to compare the paints/colours I use with the palettes he has - I note that my colours fall within the range of colours he has.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

[Mfezi]

12 hours ago, STAVKA said:

[laughter] and another! I have conspired to push "send"...  Any road, I started talking about upper surfaces, but the matter was lowers. So, let me correct and clarify.

 

The LOWER surfce of the wing adjacent to fuel cell cover has the paint stack = ALG-1, AMT-7, Gris Bleu Claire (my assumption, no expert on French lacquers) and a darker grey. Priming with ALG-1 being absolutly typical Saratov practice. Some parts of the fuselage (some might know that the wing is not from the same aircraft) have a paint stack of seven layers in places. I have doumented the evolution of several ex N-N Yak-3s in profile, and this level of re-painting was actually not especially unusual. The re-painting of tactical and unit markings was particularly bewildering. Sorry, a typo of "AMT-1" there for ALG-1. Apologies.

 

There are small areas of actual AMT-7 still visible on the fuselage, and you can dig for it on the wings. That was the state of preservation when I examined it.

 

Thank you for the clarification on the AMT-1. I suspected it was just a mistype, so no problem at all. What you write makes sense: The primer, possibly ALG-1 in this case, AMT-7 and then various other touchup colours over the years. I guess the mystery is then still what those two blues (one of them a greyer colour as you stated) might be. I think most of us don't care about the top coat - I obviously cannot speak for everyone, but all the comments that I have ever seen about this aircraft agreed that the eventual finish was a museum restoration and not actual AMT-7, so no-one that I know of used that top coat as any sort of reference to AMT-7. The more interesting one is the colour that was revealed when they sanded off the top coat - the darker, greyer blue colour. That is the colour that many believed to be more representative of AMT-7 and it certainly bears a similarity to various interpretations of that colour, including the chips that I made for myself from the AKAN paint range. It is very different from the old WEM interpretation of AMT-7, which I believe was developed with your assistance.

 

For what it is worth, over the years I have built up quite a collection of different paints. My aim is of course not that of a colour researcher (I get enough of that in my full-time job in aerospace R&D) - I'm more interested in building models that look right to my eye and that I can at least substantiate within reason from a historical perspective. Nevertheless, I got the WEM paints, originally got the AKAN acrylics, later AKAN enamels and later their fantastic modern range of acrylic lacquers. I tend to make colour chips for myself and one thing that I did notice was that the AKAN interpretation of AMT-7 in the acrylic lacquer range came out noticeably lighter than their own original acrylic range. I know they had some production issues in the beginning, so I assume the acrylic lacquer is the closest to their intended colour. It is lighter than the earlier acrylic colour, but otherwise still the same colour and considerably greyer and darker than the WEM colours. It does look very similar to the higher quality pictures that I have seen of the Albom Nakrasok and, yes, it does bear a striking similarity to the darker of the blues on the bottom of this Yak-3  wing and along the lower part of the fuselage.

 

I want to make it clear that I'm not here for an argument. I'm interested in how my models come out. That being said, I'm pretty fluent in Russian and I have read the whole series of M-Hobby articles written by Vakhlamov and Orlov, I've got an original copy of the later Aviakollektsia summary of their articles and I have many of the more recent Russian publications on Soviet WWII aircraft in my library. Of course, there are new evidence that come out from time to time, but there has been a fair amount of consistency in what has been published on the Russian side over the last 15 years or so, which is one of the reason why I eventually settled on and became quite comfortable with the AKAN paints for my own models.

[spitfire]

2 hours ago, Mfezi said:

 

Thank you for the clarification on the AMT-1. I suspected it was just a mistype, so no problem at all. What you write makes sense: The primer, possibly ALG-1 in this case, AMT-7 and then various other touchup colours over the years. I guess the mystery is then still what those two blues (one of them a greyer colour as you stated) might be. I think most of us don't care about the top coat - I obviously cannot speak for everyone, but all the comments that I have ever seen about this aircraft agreed that the eventual finish was a museum restoration and not actual AMT-7, so no-one that I know of used that top coat as any sort of reference to AMT-7. The more interesting one is the colour that was revealed when they sanded off the top coat - the darker, greyer blue colour. That is the colour that many believed to be more representative of AMT-7 and it certainly bears a similarity to various interpretations of that colour, including the chips that I made for myself from the AKAN paint range. It is very different from the old WEM interpretation of AMT-7, which I believe was developed with your assistance.

 

For what it is worth, over the years I have built up quite a collection of different paints. My aim is of course not that of a colour researcher (I get enough of that in my full-time job in aerospace R&D) - I'm more interested in building models that look right to my eye and that I can at least substantiate within reason from a historical perspective. Nevertheless, I got the WEM paints, originally got the AKAN acrylics, later AKAN enamels and later their fantastic modern range of acrylic lacquers. I tend to make colour chips for myself and one thing that I did notice was that the AKAN interpretation of AMT-7 in the acrylic lacquer range came out noticeably lighter than their own original acrylic range. I know they had some production issues in the beginning, so I assume the acrylic lacquer is the closest to their intended colour. It is lighter than the earlier acrylic colour, but otherwise still the same colour and considerably greyer and darker than the WEM colours. It does look very similar to the higher quality pictures that I have seen of the Albom Nakrasok and, yes, it does bear a striking similarity to the darker of the blues on the bottom of this Yak-3  wing and along the lower part of the fuselage.

 

I want to make it clear that I'm not here for an argument. I'm interested in how my models come out. That being said, I'm pretty fluent in Russian and I have read the whole series of M-Hobby articles written by Vakhlamov and Orlov, I've got an original copy of the later Aviakollektsia summary of their articles and I have many of the more recent Russian publications on Soviet WWII aircraft in my library. Of course, there are new evidence that come out from time to time, but there has been a fair amount of consistency in what has been published on the Russian side over the last 15 years or so, which is one of the reason why I eventually settled on and became quite comfortable with the AKAN paints for my own models.

Sounds familiar, I have quite a range of model paints now after going through the same type of route, trying to match available model paints with the AKAN range of enamels, below is a typical example of this.

 

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Mfezi]

12 minutes ago, spitfire said:

Sounds familiar, I have quite a range of model paints now after going through the same type of route, trying to match available model paints with the AKAN range of enamels, below is a typical example of this.

Yes, that looks very familiar😀

[Massimo Tessitori]

Quote

 one thing that I did notice was that the AKAN interpretation of AMT-7 in the acrylic lacquer range came out noticeably lighter than their own original acrylic range. I know they had some production issues in the beginning, so I assume the acrylic lacquer is the closest to their intended colour.

 

I've noticed the same. I assume that they compared the old Nakrasok chips to the mixing paint when this was still liquid, then the paint darkened when drying. It is a common thing in acrylics.

[Learstang]

Yes, Dennis, I remember all the great work you did with those chip comparisons! I think I downloaded copies (I hope you don't mind) of all the pictures you posted.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jason

[spitfire]

1 hour ago, Learstang said:

Yes, Dennis, I remember all the great work you did with those chip comparisons! I think I downloaded copies (I hope you don't mind) of all the pictures you posted.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jason

No problem with that Jason, if they can encourage more people to build models of VVS subjects then that's great.

Looking at the AKAN AMT 7 chip it is very similar to the sanded back colour on the French Yak 3.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Learstang]

Yes, I agree Dennis - it does look the same, or nearly so. It may be unfair, but I've always felt the AKAN colours were too dark, especially the AMT-11 (as dark as what I use for AMT-12 Dark Grey), and the AMT-7. I used the AKAN AMT-7 on a model (an Il-2, I believe), but although I liked the colour itself, I thought it was too dark and painted over it with Testors Flanker Blue or Topside Blue. To me, the AKAN colour looked too much like PRU Blue, not like the lighter blue I expect of AMT-7. However, if that colour on the Le Bourget Yak-3 is indeed AMT-7, then perhaps I need to reassess it. It is an attractive colour at any rate. I haven't used AKAN in years, so I might just buy me some new examples to see what they look like now.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

Edited August 19, 2021 by Learstang

[Massimo Tessitori]

Probably the AMT-7 was formulated in such saturated way because blue paint faded quickly when exposed to the sunlight. The light blue of the '30s is said to turn into grey, and it was an originally glossy paint. Yes, the life of the planes in peacetime was longer and so the fading of the paint.

[Mfezi]

11 hours ago, Learstang said:

Yes, I agree Dennis - it does look the same, or nearly so. It may be unfair, but I've always felt the AKAN colours were too dark, especially the AMT-11 (as dark as what I use for AMT-12 Dark Grey), and the AMT-7. I used the AKAN AMT-7 on a model (an Il-2, I believe), but although I liked the colour itself, I thought it was too dark and painted over it with Testors Flanker Blue or Topside Blue.

 

Jason, if the AKAN paint that you used was the acrylic and not the new acrylic lacquer, it probably WAS too dark - as the posts above show, it was not only me who noticed that trend. With mine, I found that I had to add almost 30% white to get those original acrylics to match their later acrylic lacquers. That does not only go for their AMT-7, but also AMT-11 and AMT-12. The colours themselves looked good - they were simply too dark.

 

The resulting colours may still seem a little dark if you were used to the WEM paints, but in my opinion they look great on a model. You can lighten them more as part of your weathering process, but I usually keep my weathering quite subtle on Soviet WWII aircraft as they generally seemed to be in quite good condition in wartime photographs (unlike modern Russian jets, especially during the mid-90's and early 2000's).

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

On 8/18/2021 at 4:10 PM, STAVKA said:

Now, however, may I ask how would you transmit the idea of a colour-- let's pick on AMT-7, shall we?-- to me, therefore? You've said that your renders cannot be used for colour matching. Very well, if I want to replicate your idea of the colour AMT-7 here at home, say by mixing some paint, how would you direct me to do this to a result you find to be satisfactory?

 

Good morning,

 

Sorry for the delay - I got waylaid by the day job. I had been over-thinking the answer here but eventually I realised I have known it for a while and we do it regularly with other researchers as well as for quality checks and comparisons etc.

 

The answer is CIELAB. That's how we transmit the colour data between one another. A set of L*a*b* coordinates will produce exactly the same colour for anyone, any where and they never deteriorate. All one needs to confirm is the Illuminant used (everyone uses D65 nowadays) and the Observer Angle (everyone uses 10 degrees nowadays). If those two things are known, then any idea of (a solid) colour can be sent or stored with total integrity. Translucent lacquers, micas, pearlescent and other metallics are more complicated but keeping to the realms of solid, opaque camouflage paint this is about as rock-solid as it gets.

 

Of course to do that one needs to be able to objectively measure the colour. Whilst not as accurate as an annually calibrated desktop spectrophotometer, the pocket-sized portable devices made by https://www.nixsensor.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwgviIBhBkEiwA10D2jwf9_T89SU1lveRutWR3vYnBHpMFcHTai9zlZiU4LjJQTXymgHsulxoCEWEQAvD_BwE are still very accurate, completely portable (you can take it to the sample and measure anything you can touch, rather than having to take the sample to the spectrophotometer) and best of all relatively affordable. I've measured many things with my first generation Nix Pro including "smuggling" it into the National Archives. I say that like its a no-no. To bring in colour fans the first time I went we had to jump through all sorts of hoops and the head-honcho was eventually called to see us. They are very paranoid about people bringing in stuff that could be swapped for the originals whether deliberately or by accident. A small plastic gadget on the other hand doesn't interest them. Likewise, it was small enough and innocent enough in its function to carry into Portsmouth naval base, including the guard room security checks, to digitally measure the samples they keep in the Admiralty Library which I managed to get an invitation to go see. One of these might suit your purposes very well.

 

They work using a very simple App on your smartphone via Wifi and Bluetooth pairing. You just press the sensor onto your target to exclude ambient light, tap the button on your phone screen and you get this which you can name and save in structured library folders or just transpose onto something else as you need. I zapped this one from HMS Victory's hull as I stepped through the companionway. You can set the illuminant and observer angles on the app then pretty much forget about it. The difference in accuracy between one of these and the desktop machine our paint factory uses is typically less than the rounding error of the one significant figure display on the CIELAB readout from the app - i.e. the desktop gives more numbers behind the decimal place but few humans could spot the difference in colour by eye.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jamie, 

I don't know how the original chip is, but what I see on the screen looks hardly a yellow, it looks more a skin color.

I am not questioning about your colorimeter or your work, I have seen many digital chips, for example from the Federal Standard site, that don't match at all with what I see on material chips. For example, a FS-34102 that seems brown.

I already had the impression that the shades extracted by colorimeters are good to be compared with other shades extracted with the same instruments, but their visualization on a screen isn't good.

I am sure that it is not a problem of calibration of my screen, because the shades taken with the scanners or cameras don't suffer in the same way.

Regards

Massimo

[Mfezi]

Massimo, that may actually be correct. Go look at pictures of HMS victory - that colour appears anything from pink to yellow, depending on lighting. See this article:

https://www.nmrn.org.uk/news-events/nmrn-blog/hms-victory-be-re-painted-battle-trafalgar-colours-after-210-years

 

From the article: "The resulting colour has been something of a surprise – we actually expected the colour to be a creamy hue, what we have found is that Victory was painted in bands of graphite grey and a colour that ranges from a creamy-orange to almost salmon pink in certain lights; It’s a radical change in the ship’s appearance, and we’ll be interested to hear what visitors to the ship think of this historically accurate paint scheme.”

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi Jamie, 

I don't know how the original chip is, but what I see on the screen looks hardly a yellow, it looks more a skin color.

I am not questioning about your colorimeter or your work, I have seen many digital chips, for example from the Federal Standard site, that don't match at all with what I see on material chips. For example, a FS-34102 that seems brown.

I already had the impression that the shades extracted by colorimeters are good to be compared with other shades extracted with the same instruments, but their visualization on a screen isn't good.

I am sure that it is not a problem of calibration of my screen, because the shades taken with the scanners or cameras don't suffer in the same way.

Regards

Massimo

 

1 hour ago, Mfezi said:

Massimo, that may actually be correct. Go look at pictures of HMS victory - that colour appears anything from pink to yellow, depending on lighting. See this article:

https://www.nmrn.org.uk/news-events/nmrn-blog/hms-victory-be-re-painted-battle-trafalgar-colours-after-210-years

 

From the article: "The resulting colour has been something of a surprise – we actually expected the colour to be a creamy hue, what we have found is that Victory was painted in bands of graphite grey and a colour that ranges from a creamy-orange to almost salmon pink in certain lights; It’s a radical change in the ship’s appearance, and we’ll be interested to hear what visitors to the ship think of this historically accurate paint scheme.”

 

Yes indeed. It's not very yellow at all! HMS Victory had been painted quite a bright yellow for most of the 20th century:

 

During some conservation work various layers of paint were stripped back and the latest thinking (I was not involved in this research - I just wanted to know the conclusion) is that the original paint was much less bright and more fleshy - almost pink. It does look different in different photographs hence why I wanted objective numbers. The new "Yellow" has certainly been quite controversial...

 

 

[Rolls-Royce]

I'd read that the colors of RN ships in Nelson's time were described as "Black and Buff", and the tannish shade in the center wide-angle photo seems to fit that description better than the yellow.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[Bertie McBoatface]

Well that thread was a fascinating read. Highly recommended.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Thank you, the color of the ship is surprising. 

Then, was it described as 'buff' even in her time of activity?

Regards

Massimo

[Rolls-Royce]

2 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Thank you, the color of the ship is surprising. 

Then, was it described as 'buff' even in her time of activity?

Regards

Massimo

I believe I read that description in John Keegan's The Price of Admiralty, written several decades ago, perhaps even before Victory was painted with the yellow.

Here's a Historic Dockyard video on the repaint:

These guys are serious about accuracy!

Edited August 20, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[Learstang]

Yes, but shouldn't that be 'HMS Victory - In Her True Colours (We Think)'.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

[Rolls-Royce]

15 hours ago, Learstang said:

Yes, but shouldn't that be 'HMS Victory - In Her True Colours (We Think)'.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

The crew tasked with finding the true colors and doing the repaint seem rather sure. The video shows a microscopic exam of paint layers dating from 1802 onwards on chips taken from Victory's hull. His ships were repainted on his order prior to Trafalgar in 1805 because he disliked the black and yellow prescribed by the Admiralty from 1770 or thereabouts. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Rolls-Royce