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Posted (edited)

By way of a quick update, I have managed to get the Welsh Comet to a point where I could lay down the primer coat. I did this with some trepidation as the wing to fuselage joint was not neat as I orginally anticipated and I used more Milliput than I had hoped. I have a strange view on Milliput, to me its akin to what silicon sealant is to the construction industry, a bodge! 🙂 I had prepared the joint well running down the grades of wet and dry and I was pleasantly surprised there was not many unpleasant surprises when the primer coat went on, I had anticipated a lot more and it turned out are only a handful small areas that require attention with Milliput and abrading back, so I was very happy with the outcome. There are some area of lost detail I need to rescribe, nothing too onerous and I will do that when the primer coat has fully cured.

 

One area I would say where the Amodel kit could be better than the Welsh kit is the  underside centre section of the wing to fuselage area, if it hadn't been attacked by a Dalek by a plunger! the Welsh kit is not right in this in area, I did my best to correct this with Milliput. However, to correct it properly would require major surgery. So I left it at that.

 

I started this process with a reasonable view of the Amodel kit but as I have progressed that has slowly evaporated. Anyhow here are some pic of the Welsh kit as it stands.

 

414442409.jpg

 

414442408.jpg

 

Tommo.

Edited by The Tomohawk Kid
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Nice!

 

On 6/15/2020 at 11:36 AM, The Tomohawk Kid said:

the Amodel Comet ... tailplanes are quite overscale.

Quite possibly... The whole kit is skewed in different directions. There again, most kits are skew-whiff, each in a different way or ways, so perhaps the best policy is, least said, soonest mended! In my old age, anything that passes the "looks like" test will do! :)

 

2 hours ago, The Tomohawk Kid said:

One area I would say where the Amodel kit could be better than the Welsh kit is the  underside centre section of the wing to fuselage area

Absolutely! I'd add the engines' undersides to the list -- each pair kind of merges into a single lump about 2/3rds of the way back at the bottom, but in this area Welsh appear to have just copied Airfix, with its four discernible jet pipes. I've not seen the Welsh kit and am just judging by photos here and elsewhere.

 

Still, thanks for letting us have a look-see! Nice!

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, skippiebg said:

Quite possibly... The whole kit is skewed in different directions.

 

 

 

I reckon the Amodel tailplanes are a good 30% too large, so not just a scrape with a scalpel.

 

Tommo.

 

 

Edited by The Tomohawk Kid
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Interesting stuff Tommo, it seems problems abound with all Comets kits.

Member Stringbag (Chris) has kindly lent me his unbuilt Authentic Airliners Comet 4C to make a comparison.

Assuming the AA kit to be pretty accurate, it reveals a few things,:

  • Having extended the wings to get the correct span, something didn't look right. I thought there was too much wing outboard of the pinion tanks. The comparison reveals that there is, the entire Amodel tanks are inboard of the AA ones.  I'll post some photos in the next day or two, probably any extension needs to be inserted inboard of the pinion tanks. 😬
  • Fuselage lengths are in complete agreement, cross section and nose shapes differ though.
  • The Amodel and AA tailplanes are almost identical!

John

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Comet tailplanes are set at quite a severe dihedral. Any plan view of a Comet would show this in the form of a foreshortened length due to the perspective of the view from directly above. Plans views of Comets should show a separate plan view of the tailplanes  fully "flat" in addition to the view of the tailplanes attached to the fuselage.

 

Would that explain an apparent 30% apparent error in the dimensions mentioned above?

Edited by Eric Mc
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Viking said:

Interesting stuff Tommo, it seems problems abound with all Comets kits.

Member Stringbag (Chris) has kindly lent me his unbuilt Authentic Airliners Comet 4C to make a comparison.

Assuming the AA kit to be pretty accurate, it reveals a few things,:

  • Having extended the wings to get the correct span, something didn't look right. I thought there was too much wing outboard of the pinion tanks. The comparison reveals that there is, the entire Amodel tanks are inboard of the AA ones.  I'll post some photos in the next day or two, probably any extension needs to be inserted inboard of the pinion tanks. 😬
  • Fuselage lengths are in complete agreement, cross section and nose shapes differ though.
  • The Amodel and AA tailplanes are almost identical!

John

 

Here is a pic of the Two Six 4C resin wing tip parts, these are designed to convert the Airfix kit, does this help?

 

414442614.jpg

 

http://www.26decals.com/epages/62035508.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62035508/Products/TSR144-04

 

I would concur that the AA model being accurate, I wish the 4B was currently available.

 

My observation on the Welsh over the Amodel kit is the nose profile is lot better on the Welsh, fuselage length wing span et al are all good and the detail is acceptable, but still not ideal in that it does not correct the facetted appearance of the windscreen as I previously mentioned the underside centre section is a bit lacking - but in the event of the AA kit not being available, it is by far the best of the available kits.

 

On the curious tale of the Amodel tail planes (see what I did there?), I have revisited this. Further up the thread I believe I overstated the case - whilst I believe they are overscale however, not by the margin I originally suggested, in my vapid defence this is not helped as it is a one part and includes a small section of the fuselage tail with that being under scale gives the impression they are more overscale than they are, I reckon they are  2mm each too long.

 

I agree there is still room in the market for an affordable up to date range of Comet kits, if the demand is there is entirely another matter.

 

Tommo.

Edited by The Tomohawk Kid
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35 minutes ago, Eric Mc said:

Would that explain an apparent 30% apparent error in the dimensions mentioned above?

 

No. I got it wrong see above.

 

Tommo.

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3 hours ago, The Tomohawk Kid said:

 

Here is a pic of the Two Six 4C resin wing tip parts, these are designed to convert the Airfix kit, does this help?

 

http://www.26decals.com/epages/62035508.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62035508/Products/TSR144-04

 

I would concur that the AA model being accurate, I wish the 4B was currently available.

 

My observation on the Welsh over the Amodel kit is the nose profile is lot better on the Welsh, fuselage length wing span et al are all good and the detail is acceptable, but still not ideal in that it does not correct the facetted appearance of the windscreen as I previously mentioned the underside centre section is a bit lacking - but in the event of the AA kit not being available, it is by far the best of the available kits.

 

On the curious tale of the Amodel tail planes (see what I did there?), I have revisited this. Further up the thread I believe I overstated the case - whilst I believe they are overscale however, not by the margin I originally suggested, in my vapid defence this is not helped as it is a one part and includes a small section of the fuselage tail with that being under scale gives the impression they are more overscale than they are, I reckon they are  2mm each too long.

 

I agree there is still room in the market for an affordable up to date range of Comet kits, if the demand is there is entirely another matter.

 

Tommo.

Amodel, AA and Airfix tailplanes are all the same length (span), Welsh models tailplanes are noticably shorter (4mm each side) and narrower in chord (1.5mm)

The Welsh C wing has the extended span, and the pinion tanks are in the correct position. The tanks however look too small in diameter and too long, and the inboard fairing to the wing is far too large.

The 26decals conversion takes the same outboard wing section as the Airfix kit it is to be used on (ie same span as a 4B) adds the tanks at the correct distance from the tip and extends the ailerons inboard to get their correct length. The tanks appear to be correct in length, but a re a bit tubby and teardrop shaped. the inboard fairing to the wing may be fractionally too small.

The overall result is the wings are short on span, the outboard flap sections are too small, and the pinion tanks are too far inboard.

I don't have an Amodel C, but from what @Viking is saying it appears thay have copied the 26decals conversion tank position in relation to the aircraft centreline and added extra to the outboard wing panels to get the span correct.

AA have the correct sized pinoin tanks in the correct position and the correct span. The inboard tank to wing fairing  is the right size and captures the droop at the leading edge towards the tank, and includes the slot in it.

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2 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

Amodel, AA and Airfix ...

Thank you, Dave, for a wonderful roundup!

 

This thread's now taken us full circle from Airfix and Amodel, via Welsh, onto Authentic Airliners. Yet again we learn that if we want perfection on the Comet front, we have to dish out sixty-odd knicker (plus P&P). Half that price gets us half the perfection. A third or less gets us a hodge-podge, as already stated above by John (Viking). Unless we're in for a long improvement project, that is...

 

The Airfix Comet is cheap and easily available. It is essentially geometrically sound. It is also sufficiently sturdy/"fleshy" (in that nice Airfix way of old) to allow very heavy tampering. Its major drawback is a featureless, bloated centre section with inboard engines and jetpipes that are half as big again as the outboard ones. Lesser issues include an undersized and misshapen fin and undersize engine inlets. And it only represents the 4B, needing pinion tanks and wing extensions to represent the more numerous 4 and 4C. So my vote goes to Airfix, personally.

Edited by skippiebg
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Posted (edited)

A bit like Gordon Banks at the 1970 World Cup@Dave Swindell your post came at point where I could pull my model from the a bit like when every one thought Pele has scored. I have spent the day grafting on the Amodel tail planes to the Welsh kit as well as rescribing. Also, as one can see from the images below I have also done a contrast and compare between the Amodel and Welsh parts. I need apply Milliput to the underside joints on the tail plane joins however, as the gaps are quite large and Milliput has very little structural strength I'll do that when the top surfaces joins have cured overnight.

 

414442678.jpg

 

414442679.jpg

 

414442680.jpg

 

Tommo.

 

 

Edited by The Tomohawk Kid
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, skippiebg said:

Yet again we learn that if we want perfection on the Comet front, we have to dish out sixty-odd knicker (plus P&P). Half that price gets us half the perfection.

 

 

I personally would fork out for the AA 4B, but it is currently out of stock at the moment in common with most of the AA range.

 

Tommo.

Edited by The Tomohawk Kid
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Just now, The Tomohawk Kid said:

I personally would fork out for the AA

S'ppose by the time you add this and that to an Airfix, it all comes down to the same thing, money wise. Thing is, I like fiddling with plastic, personally. Be nice if I finished the odd build, too...

 

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19 hours ago, skippiebg said:

S'ppose by the time you add this and that to an Airfix, it all comes down to the same thing, money wise. Thing is, I like fiddling with plastic, personally. Be nice if I finished the odd build, too...

 

Exactly! It doesn't look like there is a 'perfect' Comet out there, but this hobby is meant to be about enjoyment and escaping the day to day worries of the world.

I'm enjoying this thread immensely, and learning from it too. It had been very civilised, friendly, and constructive.

(I've stuck a Britmodeller logo on my pics, as I've noticed some of my stuff appearing on other websites. I'd rather people came here to see the photos and add to the discussion)

 

Comparing the extended Amodel fuselage with the Airfix one. You can just see that although it now matches in length, it has a slightly thinner diameter

c5.jpg

 

With the main assembly done, something doesn't look right. The distance from pinion tank to wingtip looks excessive.

c7.jpg

 

A quick call to Chris 'Stringbag' secured a loan of his Authentic Airliners Comet 4C. I'm taking this as the benchmark for accuracy in 1/144 scale as most of us would.

And here we see the problem. The AA wing has the correct position, and also makes the Amodel tank look a bit skinny. (And my wingtip extension needs trimming back).  Possibly the wing extension should have been done inboard of the pinion tank.

c8.jpg

 

But look at the wing chord, particularly the trailing edge where it meets the engine.

c14.jpg

 

Lets have a look at the tailplanes, comparing the AA part with Amodel and Airfix. All 3 are pretty close.

c9.jpg

 

A couple of years ago I modified an Airfix 4B to a 4C with extended wing and pinion tanks (taken from a 1/72 Airfix Vampire).

c10.jpg

 

I'll add it in to the mix of comparisons here. I'd say I got a better result from the Airfix kit

c11.jpg

 

Next I'm interested in the nose shapes. Aifix & AA:

c12.jpg

 

Is it me, or is the AA nose looking too tapered? and the Airfix one too blunt?

All 3 for an unscientific comparison:

c13.jpg

 

I'm not sure what I will do with my Amodel build. Probably reduce the wingtips back and accept that the span is undersized. It just looks too odd to me now, and I'm not about to start chopping the wings off inboard of the tanks, and inserting extensions.

I think is probably best to accept that the Amodel kit is a little underscale for 1/144 but still needs it fuselage extending, perhaps not as much as I have.

I'm inclined to say that the old Airfix kit is as a good a start point as any, and like Skippybg says, it is sturdy enough to take some chopping about.

Horses for courses really!

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

 

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Wow! What a brilliant visual comparison! Thank you so much, John!

 

On noses, I feel that AA is indeed too tapered -- looks like their Caravelle if you ask me. (The Caravelle did indeed have the same nose, but a longer radome, and the nose merged into a slightly wider fuselage in which it sat slightly low, giving an appearance entirely distinct from the Comet.) The Airfix is indeed too blunt, as is also the Amodel, I'd venture...

 

 

Edited by skippiebg
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7 minutes ago, The Tomohawk Kid said:

@Viking any chance you can take some more close up shots of the AA nose?

May I add to that a request for the underside of the fuselage at the centre section? Ta in advance!

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11 hours ago, Viking said:

Next I'm interested in the nose shapes. Aifix & AA:
 

c13.jpg

 

 

John

 

Looking at this picture, I'd say the Airfix kit has the better nose shape. 

Chris.

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8 hours ago, stringbag said:

Looking at this picture, I'd say the Airfix kit has the better nose shape. 

Chris.

 

Looking at that image it would hard to argue with that view. However, it appears the AA fuselage is tilted towards the camera and the slightly elevated view may give a wrong impression. Given AA's unrivalled reputation accuracy I'm extremely curious if the nose is really a 'bit off' ? Hence, why I asked if it is possible for a few more images, I would also like to see it with a coat of primer on too, but that obviously is not possible in this case.

 

Tommo.

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22 hours ago, The Tomohawk Kid said:

@Viking any chance you can take some more close up shots of the AA nose?

Certainly!

 

c15.jpg

 

c16.jpg

 

21 hours ago, skippiebg said:

May I add to that a request for the underside of the fuselage at the centre section? Ta in advance

Of course!

c17.jpg

 

John

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Thank you so much for this, John and Tommo! I'd say, personally, the AA nose is the same as their Caravelle. (Which are lovely and of which I have two in the stash...) Here is a brilliant set of Comet 4 and 4B/4C noses, by friend Guy Montaguy-Pollock. The Comet nose is a tad shorter than the Caravelle's and its windscreen sits a tad higher in the fuselage. A personal view, this, entirely unsupported by measurements...

Edited by skippiebg
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