SUPERMARINE SCIMITAR **RFI posted**

[Antti_K]

Ooohh... a Scimitar. And detailed "how to" instructions as well. I'm in!

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Liberator224J]

Intricate design work on the tail reshaping. Looks spectacular.  Will be watching your build closely. 

[corsaircorp]

On 5/30/2020 at 10:59 PM, CJP said:

That is interesting to hear of that survey at Telford Martian- we can only live in hope

 

CJP

Hello CJ !!

That's a great idea I also love the Scimitar !!

May I take a seat ?

in SMW 2017 when I asked the Airfix staff about a 1/48 Scimitar, the answer was, "I cannot say No"....

in 2019, they said that the Scimitar is in the plans...

Now you start your Vac formed one !!

That will make the Airfix one coming !! Good move !! Carry on !!

Sincerely.

CC

[CJP]

57 minutes ago, corsaircorp said:

Hello CJ !!

That's a great idea I also love the Scimitar !!

May I take a seat ?

in SMW 2017 when I asked the Airfix staff about a 1/48 Scimitar, the answer was, "I cannot say No"....

in 2019, they said that the Scimitar is in the plans...

Now you start your Vac formed one !!

That will make the Airfix one coming !! Good move !! Carry on !!

Sincerely.

CC

Thanks CC - it is always interesting to hear what you & Martian find out at Telford - I guess we will have to wait and see - they did some nice Hunters so why not a Scimitar? - I don't mind if they bring out a Scimitar just after I finish my Dynavector build😀 - I finished the Alize but still no 1/48 injection kit of that yet!🙁

CJP

Edited June 5, 2020 by CJP

[CJP]

1 hour ago, Liberator224J said:

Intricate design work on the tail reshaping. Looks spectacular.  Will be watching your build closely. 

Likewise Liberator224J - I'm following your build too - I just got the main fuselage cut out and sanded and find it is very flimsy and & feel that I will need a bit of thought on how to strengthen it before I glue it together - already cut out some formers to go inside even though instructions say it is unnecessary

CJP

[Liberator224J]

Hi CJ,

 

since I built without the instructions I didn’t know about the single bar and no other formers needed. Well scratch that. I did read it as a statement by Mike on his build but just a passing phrase that the single bar was enough. 
well when I started my engineering debut in the Scimitar interior framework. I realized that it was technically inecessary. And that I had in fact messed up the shape a tad. 
I would recommend adding some stringers or framework to the tail so it glued to the fuselage solid.  I realize how important that is since through the build the place I’ve been picking her up has been the tail. 

[CJP]

1 hour ago, Liberator224J said:

Hi CJ,

 

since I built without the instructions I didn’t know about the single bar and no other formers needed. Well scratch that. I did read it as a statement by Mike on his build but just a passing phrase that the single bar was enough. 
well when I started my engineering debut in the Scimitar interior framework. I realized that it was technically inecessary. And that I had in fact messed up the shape a tad. 
I would recommend adding some stringers or framework to the tail so it glued to the fuselage solid.  I realize how important that is since through the build the place I’ve been picking her up has been the tail. 

OK Liberator224J thanks for that advice and for the close up photo of the interior of your Scimitar - I am doing similar interior support as I thought the moulding sides were very thin and flimsy so I have added a couple of formers - I will remember your advice on mounting the tail - I might also add a spar to slide into the wings too - probably overkill but better safe than sorry.

[Liberator224J]

Frankly overkill is better than watching it pop off as I lift her onto a photobooth for display pictures :))So I like your angle on the attack. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Liberator224J

[CJP]

Now that I have got to assembling the fuselage,  progress has slowed considerably while I feel my way through how to go about it learning vacform modelling techniques.

The sides once cut out and sanded seem very thin and flimsy to me - the instructions state that the only internal support needed is a cross bar across one fuselage half but I was not convinced and decided it needed some formers - I made up two for each fuselage half and glued them in and also added tabs to aid joining the fuselage together as well as the crossbar.

 

The former shapes I made are as below & are close enough to the inside fuselage contour and stiffened the fuselage halves up considerably - several builds I have read state only the crossbar is needed as per instructions so its personal modellers choice!

I also started the slow process of opening up the various NACA vents, intakes and openings in the fuselage - I am trying to add the boundary layer bleed vent fins with individual plastic strips but it is  hard to keep them aligned accurately so its going to take a while I think - does anyone have a technique for making these?- I have to add the cockpit tub and nose wheel bay and work out what I am going to do about modelling the cannon troughs before  I join the fuselage halves.

I have spent  some time looking at the nose profile and settled on the following profile which is close I think.

I will be stuck on the fuselage a while longer I think.

CJP

Edited June 8, 2020 by CJP
text

[Liberator224J]

On 05/06/2020 at 12:05, CJP said:

I also started the slow process of opening up the various NACA vents, intakes and openings in the fuselage - I am trying to add the boundary layer bleed vent fins with individual plastic strips but it is  hard to keep them aligned accurately so its going to take a while I think - does anyone have a technique for making these?- I have to add the cockpit tub and nose wheel bay and work out what I am going to do about modelling the cannon troughs before  I join the fuselage halves.

 

I regret not opening the Louvres like you are doing. It’s painstaking work. But when you build her it will be well worth it. Nice job so far. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Mike
Editing out extra unnecessary photos from quote.

[Aardvark]

2 hours ago, CJP said:

I am trying to add the boundary layer bleed vent fins with individual plastic strips but it is  hard to keep them aligned accurately so its going to take a while I think - does anyone have a technique for making these?-

Yes. This technique was demonstrated by Eugene Knupfer ("Small Stuff")

when he did resin detail set  for the Tu-134 (or Tu-154 don't remember) Zvezda in 1/144.

You need glue thin plastic strips in this schematic order (side view ) 

 IiIiIiliI 

where:

I - long plastic strips 

i - shot plastic strips 

You need to get a design like a flat hair comb but in section:

You can immediately paste the sections into the part You need, You can make a frame around the contour around from plastic strips, but cut off the base,  which in this diagram "IiIiIiI",

You need the top points above "i" and when the whole structure is already well and firmly glued to the part you need.

After that level surface with sanding paper.

 

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[CJP]

3 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

Yes. This technique was demonstrated by Eugene Knupfer ("Small Stuff")

when he did resin detail set  for the Tu-134 (or Tu-154 don't remember) Zvezda in 1/144.

You need glue thin plastic strips in this schematic order (side view ) 

 IiIiIiliI 

where:

I - long plastic strips 

i - shot plastic strips 

You need to get a design like a flat hair comb but in section:

You can immediately paste the sections into the part You need, You can make a frame around the contour around from plastic strips, but cut off the base,  which in this diagram "IiIiIiI",

You need the top points above "i" and when the whole structure is already well and firmly glued to the part you need.

After that level surface with sanding paper.

 

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

Ok thanks Serge - I will try that method which should do the job neatly - I am  going to remove my first unsatisfactory attempts from the scimitar

[CJP]

I'm looking through photos of Scimitars and I noticed that some aircraft seem to have one pair of cannons removed - does anyone have information on this and when that started to occur? - I have seen a photos of 803 and 800B squadron Scimitars that appear to have the inner cannons removed and a blanking panel fitted in their place.

CJP

Edited June 7, 2020 by CJP
text

[Martian]

36 minutes ago, CJP said:

I'm looking through photos of Scimitars and I noticed that some aircraft seem to have one pair of cannons removed - does anyone have information on this and when that started to occur? - I have seen a photos of 803 and 800B squadron Scimitars that appear to have the inner cannons removed and a blanking panel fitted in their place.

CJP

When the Scimitars were diverted to the tanker role, there was an Admiralty instruction to remove the aircraft's armament but this was never fully implemented. It may however go at least part of the way to explaining what you have been looking at.

 

Martian 👽

[Liberator224J]

47 minutes ago, Martian said:

When the Scimitars were diverted to the tanker role, there was an Admiralty instruction to remove the aircraft's armament but this was never fully implemented. It may however go at least part of the way to explaining what you have been looking at.

 

Martian 👽

So would be safe to model the four tank with Refuelling pods to have inner gun ports blanked ?

[CJP]

1 hour ago, Martian said:

When the Scimitars were diverted to the tanker role, there was an Admiralty instruction to remove the aircraft's armament but this was never fully implemented. It may however go at least part of the way to explaining what you have been looking at.

 

Martian 👽

Thanks for that Martian so maybe the armament or part thereof was removed to save weight & to enhance performance in the tanker role?

 

CJP

[Martian]

1 hour ago, Liberator224J said:

So would be safe to model the four tank with Refuelling pods to have inner gun ports blanked ?

I would be reluctant to do that without a photograph of the particular aircraft you want to model.

19 minutes ago, CJP said:

Thanks for that Martian so maybe the armament or part thereof was removed to save weight & to enhance performance in the tanker role?

 

CJP

That wouldn't make much difference as ballast would need to ne fitted in lieu to maintain the aircraft's centre of gravity. I do know that carrier captains were keen to retain the Scimitar's armament so as to have a secondary strike capability. I will have a flick through the Air Britain Scimitar File book to see if I can come up with anything.

 

Martian 👽

[CJP]

23 minutes ago, Martian said:

I would be reluctant to do that without a photograph of the particular aircraft you want to model.

That wouldn't make much difference as ballast would need to ne fitted in lieu to maintain the aircraft's centre of gravity. I do know that carrier captains were keen to retain the Scimitar's armament so as to have a secondary strike capability. I will have a flick through the Air Britain Scimitar File book to see if I can come up with anything.

 

Martian 👽

I actually have that book Martian but haven't come across anything - your probably better at zeroing in on info like that - if you don't mind looking it is much appreciated.

[Martian]

1 hour ago, CJP said:

I actually have that book Martian but haven't come across anything - your probably better at zeroing in on info like that - if you don't mind looking it is much appreciated.

OK, there doesn't seem to be anything textwise so I have looked at lot of pictures to see if any sort of pattern emerges. which it hasn't thus far. Even the Scimitars of FRADU when they were at Hurn, long after the type had been withdrawn from front line service, seem to have had full armament fitted.

 

I think we need to tackle this from another angle. What scheme do you have in mind for your model? Once we have made the decision, it should be possible to come up with a serial number/code combination and a picture showing how many guns it was carrying at a particular point in it's career. 

 

I will have a ferret through some more references to see if anything obvious turns up and have a good think to see if anything lights up my brain.

 

If all else fails, my default position would be to model the four gun fit. This could well turn out to be a four pint problem and the drinks are on you!

 

Martian 👽

[CJP]

10 hours ago, Martian said:

OK, there doesn't seem to be anything textwise so I have looked at lot of pictures to see if any sort of pattern emerges. which it hasn't thus far. Even the Scimitars of FRADU when they were at Hurn, long after the type had been withdrawn from front line service, seem to have had full armament fitted.

 

Martian 👽

Thanks Martian - I got my Scimitar File book out and started a much closer search of the photos looking for the two gun configuration - I found two gun Scimitars on -

page127 XD331 145/V circa 1960/1961 803 SQDN?

page 180 XD318 154/H circa 1963 803 SQDN

In the Phillip Birtles book Attacker Swift & Scimitar page95 XD243 025/E 800B SQDN

AD Hoc Scimitar book page56 XD322 112/R 800 SQDN

The FAA Museum's Scimitar XD317 112/R 800 SQDN has the two gun configuration so it would appear that the two gun set up was used throughout its service in the 1960's but maybe not the early years

I have not decided which Scimitar I will finish my model as - was initially leaning towards 807 SQDN which I would do as 4 gun but also have a liking of 800B SQDN in the tanker role _ I have seen photos of 800B Scimitars with 4 guns although XD243 would seem to have the 2 gun fit 🤔

WIP - it could end up in any one of the scimitar squadrons's colours

 

NB - I found another photo of XD243 025/E and the caption says that the markings were spurious as it was in use as a ground instructional  machine & actually an ex 803 SQDN aircraft - other photos I have seen of 800B SQDN Scimitars have the 4 gun fit.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by CJP
updated information

[Martian]

I too have been looking at all my books on the Scimitar and still see no discernable pattern. I went to bed thinking about this, only to wake up still pondering the issue. Your post has sparked the germ of a possible answer  and I think we may be looking for one answer when there may actually be two things going on here.

 

We need to bear in mind that a picture only depicts an aircraft at a very specific time and place. Other than maintenance or immediate availability of spare weapons issues, it is hard to see why the number of guns on the Scimitars would have been reduced when the aircraft was a front line fighter, especially on a carrier. It would however, be a perfectly reasonable scenario for a particular aircraft to still be needed for operations and fitting of ballast may have taken place to maintain C of G or indeed the absence of a certain number of weapons may have been within operating limits.

 

The tankers of 800B Squadron are a different matter. I strongly suspect that what we see here is the result of the order to remove their armament starting to be implemented and then rescinded.

 

The Markings for XD243 are in fact correct. Her last operational role was with 800B, prior to being downgraded to A ground instructional airframe at Lee-on-Solent following accident damage.

 

Martian 👽

[CJP]

2 hours ago, Martian said:

I too have been looking at all my books on the Scimitar and still see no discernable pattern. I went to bed thinking about this, only to wake up still pondering the issue. Your post has sparked the germ of a possible answer  and I think we may be looking for one answer when there may actually be two things going on here.

 

We need to bear in mind that a picture only depicts an aircraft at a very specific time and place. Other than maintenance or immediate availability of spare weapons issues, it is hard to see why the number of guns on the Scimitars would have been reduced when the aircraft was a front line fighter, especially on a carrier. It would however, be a perfectly reasonable scenario for a particular aircraft to still be needed for operations and fitting of ballast may have taken place to maintain C of G or indeed the absence of a certain number of weapons may have been within operating limits.

 

The tankers of 800B Squadron are a different matter. I strongly suspect that what we see here is the result of the order to remove their armament starting to be implemented and then rescinded.

 

The Markings for XD243 are in fact correct. Her last operational role was with 800B, prior to being downgraded to A ground instructional airframe at Lee-on-Solent following accident damage.

 

Martian 👽

Thanks again Martian - I think I will push on and make it a four gun machine - I guess there is always the option to fill the inner gun troughs if I decide to later on - see what unfolds over the next few months - maybe an ex Scimitar maintainer is out there?(note the optimism)

CJP

[CJP]

I decided to try out the technique posted by Ardvark for making the boundary layer bleed vents - firstly I decided to make up a jig to keep things aligned when I constructed the vents - I got some scrap brass strip & channel and soldered them together

I cut a piece of 60 thou square Evergreen plastic strip and angled the end at about 45 degrees, glued it to the brass base with dab of CA (not too much or it will be hard to prise the vent off the jig without damaging it) and then cut some pieces of .010 x .060 thou plastic strip into 2.5mm & 1.25 mm lengths which were then glued in alternative pattern using Tamiya extra thin cement to get the length of vent required - the top vents are about 7 vents long and the underside are longer about 10 vents long

You still need to keep an eye on alignment of the pieces & go easy on the liquid cement (yes I managed to dissolve a few vents before I got a handle on it)

The vents  were then tidied up and glued into the holes cut out of the fuselage following the marked outlines

The 60 thou square strip sticking out behind the vents is a good locating point to glue the vents to the fuselage - once positioned some CA was added to the side of the vent with a toothpick.

 

The photo below shows the cut out needed to accommodate the vent inside the intake.

Not perfect but they will do & look ok once painted.

The underside vents are longer

For the square vents they looked better if I cut the 60 thou square strip at about 60 degree angle before gluing on the vent strips

There about 20 vents so progress is slow & only when you are in the mood for fiddly stuff - there are also the NACA vents to cut out and backed with plastic sheet - once they are done I will look at the other various tubes and other openings - the Britmodeller Scimitar Walkaround is invaluable with some great photos as well as @Mikes build - so it will still be a little while before I can close up the fuselage and move on and join it to the tail unit.

I will strengthen the tail joint with some 3mm rod top and bottom based on advice from Liberator224J amongst others

 

So my Scimitar is still progressing albeit slowly for now.

CJP

Edited June 10, 2020 by CJP
text

[Liberator224J]

Wowsers. Nice job buddy. Finally understood the comb teeth method now with your pics. Coming along stellar. 

[CJP]

59 minutes ago, Liberator224J said:

Wowsers. Nice job buddy. Finally understood the comb teeth method now with your pics. Coming along stellar. 

Took a bit of setting up & still a fiddly job with 20 odd vents to do - it would be nice to create identical vents by 3D printing - TheBaron is doing marvellous work in this field with his Sea Vixen bits in the post SeaVixen FAW1&2

CJP