Converting 1/48 Airfix Spitfire Vb to Vc - the definitive list

[Ray_W]

I am just about to launch into my conversion of the Airfix 1/48 Vb into an early Vc (RAAF Aircraft). It seems a fairly straightforward and reasonably easy conversion. Special thanks to @Troy Smith  for the suggestion.

 

I have read a number of excellent BM threads on the subject of Vb to Vc conversion including some great input from, but not limited to, @Graham Boak@Magpie22@Giorgio N@Troy Smith@gingerbob and, of course, the late great Edgar Brooks. I have also perused other links like the Spitfire Site and its often visited "Concise Guide to Spitfire wings" http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/concise-guide-to-spitfire-wing-types.html. et.al. 

 

I have now put together my list of what is required including some questions that are not clear. What have I missed? 

 

Top Wing Half

1.      Remove external wing strengtheners

2.      Remove wheel well blisters and repair.

3.      Fill domed wheel well (upper wing blister) and provide new ribbing to match C-Wing.

4.      Remove cannon blisters and repair.

5.      Remove inboard machine gun detail and relocate between ribs 13 and 14.

6.      Fill all unnecessary panel lines.

7.      Re-scribe new panel lines in accordance with C-Wing including new panel for early wide cannon blister and relocated inboard machine guns. Check and include any new access hatches.

8.      Fit wide cannon blister (CHECK: my subject has the early wide blister)

 

Bottom Wing Half

9.      Remove underwing cannon blisters and repair.

10.   Add cannon ejection ports and panel detail. CHECK: New trailing small blister in cannon access panel in C-Wing. Include if required.

11.   Fill link and case ejection port for inboard machine gun in old B-Wing position and include in new C-Wing position.

12.   CHECK: Do Airfix provide landing lights to be removed?

13.   Re-scribe panels. Check and include any new access hatches.

 

Complete Wing

14.   Fill old inboard machine gun position and drill outboard new position.

15.   Replace tapered cannons housings with taper and cylindrical type and fit.

16.   Fit outboard second cannon position stubs.

 

Other Stuff

17.   Rake undercarriage legs forward by 2” EDIT: @Graham Boak commented - The undercarriage change is described in Spitfire the History (in the chapter on the Mk.III) as being a movement forward of 2 inches at the axle

18.   Fit bulged undercarriage doors.

19.   CHECK: Strengthened undercarriage, what does this mean?

20.   CHECK: Does Airfix include the larger round oil cooler?

21. EDIT:  @Graham Boak commented: The Mk.Vc also introduced the revised windscreen with the inset armour glass.  This was seen on Mk.Vb late in production.  It had a straight interface with the fuselage rather than curved.

22. EDIT: Check your references for correct Propeller and Spinner @Troy Smith has given a good explanation and links further down in this thread

 

RAAF 79 Squadron BS219 

23.    Wide cannon blister. No evidence of any other blisters on upper wing.   

24.    No pilot head rest.

25.    Exhaust gun heating tube removed. Hole in cowling remains. I am modelling how the aircraft looked in March/April 1943.

26.   IFF included.

 

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

Soon I'll start a WIP of these changes. This can be found here:

 

 

Ray

 

[72modeler]

Ray- that's a very comprehensive and useful list; thanks for taking the time to collate all of the "givens!" Hopefully somebody at Airfix will see this and use it to ensure their 1/72 new-tool Vc incorporates all the correct features! Not my scale, but I will be watching your WIP!

Mike

[Ray_W]

Hi Mike,

Not a difficult conversion. I'm sure Airfix already know that a simple replacement of Sprue B with new wings and a couple of bits and it's done. Please let them give me a month to finish my conversion and I won't care.😏 

Ray 

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Ray_W said:

Other Stuff

17.   Rake undercarriage legs forward by 2” (CHECK: Where was this measured? At the axle?).

In the Vb vs Vc thread I linked, it showed a wedge added at the leg pivot, so I presume the 2 inch is at the axle.  Actually, I don't think it's 2 inch, (but and extra 2 degrees

I posted this in the linked thread, 

the C wing introduced a 2 degree [iirc] forward rake to UC geometry.

Vb

Vc

 

this is the post showing where the wedge got added

 

Quote

18.   Fit bulged undercarriage doors.

19.   CHECK: Strengthened undercarriage, what does this mean?

May not be very visible,  I'd suggest looking at using leftover Eduard UC legs as they provide several, as well as bulged doors.

  worth asking what type was fitted,  I don't know if the Vc got the ones with the torque links,  I suspect they have the splined type.

OK

  

On 23/03/2019 at 18:13, gingerbob said:

Three, actually, at least for the Mk.VIII.  These provide for splined (that'll probably cover most Mk.Vc), aft-link (some Vc, at least retrofit), and front-link.  But all are for 'c' wings- though I'm not sure the plastic would know the difference!  I'm not sure that the aft-link type is in any other boxing (it is in the "HF.VIII" boxing, which is, in fact, F.VIIIs).

 

 

 

Quote

20.   CHECK: Does Airfix include the larger round oil cooler?

AFAIK the round oil cooler is the same on the Vb vs Vc.    Perhaps @gingerbob  may know

 

For those curious as to an iluustration of @Ray_W  wing differences

 

it's not hard to convert an Airfix Vb to a C wing.....  remove B bulges, fill some panel lines,  scribe in new ones,  move inner 0.303 out a bay, add new cannon bulge (or graft in a replacement panel) change UC roof ribbing, adjust UC leg angle.  Nab some curved doors leftover from Eduard VIII/ IX,  as they have two slightly different sets

 

 

1 hour ago, Ray_W said:

Top Wing Half

1.      Remove external wing strengtheners

2.      Remove wheel well blisters and repair.

3.      Fill domed wheel well (upper wing blister) and provide new ribbing to match C-Wing.

4.      Remove cannon blisters and repair.

5.      Remove inboard machine gun detail and relocate between ribs 13 and 14.

6.      Fill all unnecessary panel lines.

7.      Re-scribe new panel lines in accordance with C-Wing including new panel for early wide cannon blister and relocated inboard machine guns. Check and include any new access hatches.

8.      Fit wide cannon blister.

here's a comparison shot

left is undmodified, with new panel lines skteched in pencil, right has been converted

 

the bulge is from an ICM Spitfire spare door, they are too shallow, but if you cut down through the door, you get a separate deep bulge    as should be visible from the ICM door in the shot.

 

1 hour ago, Ray_W said:

Bottom Wing Half

9.      Remove underwing cannon blisters and repair.

10.   Add cannon ejection ports and panel detail. CHECK: New trailing small blister in cannon access panel in C-Wing. Include if required.

11.   Fill link and case ejection port for inboard machine gun in old B-Wing position and include in new C-Wing position.

12.   CHECK: Do Airfix provide landing lights to be removed?

13.   Re-scribe panels. Check and include any new access hatches.

 

right converted, left original.   

needs a little more work on the cannon lower panel.   

 

1 hour ago, Ray_W said:

Complete Wing

14.   Fill old inboard machine gun position and drill outboard new position.

15.   Replace tapered cannons housings with taper and cylindrical type and fit.

16.   Fit outboard second cannon position stubs.

 

 

One thing you missed, check type of prop and spinner fitted.  The Airfix Vb kit has these two, the short DH on the first, and the longer Rotol on the 2nd

 

Australian Vc seem to have two other types fitted 

Short Hamilton hydromatic

as seen on the RAAF Vc, as IIRC  they had problems with them freezing at altitude

 

 

I need to refind the image of what look like the other possible spinner...., this perhaps?  Shows the different blade shape.  

 

also

I don't know if P has a a Rotol,  or just a longer spinner,  compare to spinners on X and T

 

A @Magpie22  question.

 

For reference, here's  a previous thread

 

the build

 

also worth a read,  for more detail on RAAF Vc's

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/raafvcpm_1.htm

 

[Ray_W]

@Troy SmithThanks Troy for the quick and very detailed response.

 

I am checking the undercarriage legs. I do have a good assortment of Eduard spares. I am expecting no torque link but will carry out more research. Peter Malone may come in with an answer.

 

Thanks for highlighting the prop issue. Peter also provided some excellent shots of the aircraft I am modelling (able to be seen in my build thread you kindly posted) including the following image taken at Camden NSW late in 1942. It seems to be the Short Hamilton Hydromatic.  I expect no prop change by second quarter 1943. That is, the period I'll be modelling. I'll need to look this up and see what shape I need to turn the Airfix prop to match unless there is a viable aftermarket. 

 

 

Ray

[Graham Boak]

The Mk.Vc also introduced the revised windscreen with the inset armour glass.  This was seen on Mk.Vb late in production.  It had a straight interface with the fuselage rather than curved.

 

I don't know how many Mk.Vc in Australia had the Rotol prop but from the problems experienced at Darwin I would suggest that few or only late deliveries.

 

Early Mk.Vc also had a small blister in the uppersurface just inboard and forward of the aileron.  This may not be present on Australian examples or at least on the example being considered.

 

The undercarriage change is described in Spitfire the History (in the chapter on the Mk.III) as being a movement forward of 2 inches at the axle.

[Ray_W]

2 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The Mk.Vc also introduced the revised windscreen with the inset armour glass.  This was seen on Mk.Vb late in production.  It had a straight interface with the fuselage rather than curved.

 

I don't know how many Mk.Vc in Australia had the Rotol prop but from the problems experienced at Darwin I would suggest that few or only late deliveries.

 

Early Mk.Vc also had a small blister in the uppersurface just inboard and forward of the aileron.  This may not be present on Australian examples or at least on the example being considered.

 

The undercarriage change is described in Spitfire the History (in the chapter on the Mk.III) as being a movement forward of 2 inches at the axle.

Thank you Graham. Excellent info.

[Ray_W]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Short Hamilton hydromatic

Hi Troy, Just to be clear on this, my understanding is this is the propeller made by De Havilland using technology under licence from Hamilton Standard. Ray

[gingerbob]

Yes, and I think (though likely to be corrected) that all Australian Vs had Hydromatic props.  (Vs sent to Australia, that is, not RAAF squadrons in North Africa)

 

Personally I'd rather substitute 'c' upper (at least) wing surfaces than do all that filling and scribing and de-bumping and re-bumping.  But then again, I've got quite a good supply of Spitfire spares, so I wouldn't be worried about ending up with half a kit.  Mind you, that's hypothetical, and I freely admit that the "simple" solution would reveal some complications when it came time to make it happen.

 

It would only be considerate of Airfix to tool a Vc...

[Ray_W]

2 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

Yes, and I think (though likely to be corrected) that all Australian Vs had Hydromatic props.  (Vs sent to Australia, that is, not RAAF squadrons in North Africa)

 

Personally I'd rather substitute 'c' upper (at least) wing surfaces than do all that filling and scribing and de-bumping and re-bumping.  But then again, I've got quite a good supply of Spitfire spares, so I wouldn't be worried about ending up with half a kit.  Mind you, that's hypothetical, and I freely admit that the "simple" solution would reveal some complications when it came time to make it happen.

 

It would only be considerate of Airfix to tool a Vc...

Thanks Bob for the input.

 

I enjoy the research and then executing the change and the mods are really pretty simple. So this is a nice little project.

 

You are correct on the props, well at least going off the reference pics for my subject. In fact looking at a number (most) of the RAAF Vc's they have the De Havilland prop or at least one very similar to that supplied in the box from Airfix.

 

I think the term Hydromatic confuses the issue. Did De Havilland have a variable prop that did not use the licenced Hamilton Standard technology and that they also fitted to Mk V's? If not, then is it not simply a Rotol and De Havilland discussion? Easily picked by the different spinner shape and length.

 

Ray

[gingerbob]

I chose the term intentionally.  The Mk.I/early Mk.V DH prop was Ham Standard technology, but the Hydromatic was a new style (I don't remember the details without reviewing).  The key is how the mechanism worked, but I think the blade shape might have been a bit more muscular, too, though it is subtle.  Likewise the spinner might be slightly bigger (longer) but looks very much like the early DH spinner.  This is one of the many things on my "eventually get to the bottom of this" list.

 

So, when splitting hairs (not that we ever do that with Spitfires...) "DH" for me usually means the early prop, while Hydromatic means the later (DH manufacture) one (I think late '41 intro, maybe even early '42).  There are two generations of Rotols [3-blade] too!

[Ray_W]

2 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

I chose the term intentionally.  The Mk.I/early Mk.V DH prop was Ham Standard technology, but the Hydromatic was a new style (I don't remember the details without reviewing).  The key is how the mechanism worked, but I think the blade shape might have been a bit more muscular, too, though it is subtle.  Likewise the spinner might be slightly bigger (longer) but looks very much like the early DH spinner.  This is one of the many things on my "eventually get to the bottom of this" list.

 

So, when splitting hairs (not that we ever do that with Spitfires...) "DH" for me usually means the early prop, while Hydromatic means the later (DH manufacture) one (I think late '41 intro, maybe even early '42).  There are two generations of Rotols [3-blade] too!

Bob, I stand corrected on what I said. Yes you do need to be clear on the DH props whether they are the bracket type or Hydromatic with its typical dome end that we associate with the Hamilton Standard prop. I can see that subtle dimensional change in the spinner with the Hydromatic requiring less clearance immediately in front of the blades so smaller spinner diameter but slightly longer extension in the spinner to clear the dome as John Aero said way back in 2013 thread you were also very involved with. I'm going to keep working on this subject. 

[steh2o]

Hello,   

Sorry if this has been asked before... can a Mk IX "c" wing be transplanted and just substituting the round oil cooler of the Mk Vc?

Thanks Stefano 

[Ray_W]

35 minutes ago, steh2o said:

Hello,   

Sorry if this has been asked before... can a Mk IX "c" wing be transplanted and just substituting the round oil cooler of the Mk Vc?

Thanks Stefano 

Hi Stefano,

 

Yes it can.

 

My preference though, is to mod the Airfix Vb to Vc because I like the new tool Airfix kit and I do not need a donor kit. The modification work is reasonably easy and I know I'm going to have no issues at the wing root. 

 

Ray 

[gingerbob]

The only thing to look out for is that some IX (or other 'c' wing) kits have the late (forward link) type gear legs and corresponding doors. 

 

Come to think of it, aside from the radiator to oil cooler mod, you could also just take a Mk.IX and put the earlier cowling on- then you've got a "cowl to fuselage" join instead of wing roots to worry about.  (There's also the small bumps at the root on the IX to remove, if your kit had them.)

[steh2o]

Hello and thank you for the answers! I was just planning a 1/72 Mk XI to Mk Vc conversion that way. I suppose that even the Mk V radiator housing is shallower that Mk XI's one, is it? Thanks, Stefano 

[Seawinder]

I'd be interested to know about the upper wing cannon bulges found on Vc's: I should have thought they were all or mostly the wider ones developed for the two cannon arrangement, but were the narrow bulges as seen on Mk. IXs also used?

[gingerbob]

After my post about using a Mk.IX I worried that I hadn't addressed the cannon bulges, so thanks for being my conscience!  While I haven't done any careful analysis, you're probably right that most Vcs were delivered with the big bulge.  Almost certainly (and I might have a better idea of this soon) a fair amount of re-fitting was done to put the slim-bulge covers on.  I'd look for this particularly from spring '43.

 

Incidentally, when last I attempted to estimate, it appeared that only a few hundred (give or take 10,000!) Vcs saw service in Fighter Command- the rest were being shipped off to sunny vacation spots such as the Med.

 

A question was also raised about V vs IX radiator housings.  I honestly don't remember, or was never quite clear, if the V Trop had a slightly deeper housing, or just a different radiator core.  At any rate, it isn't very obvious.  My assumption has always been that the IX radiator housing remained the same as that (or one of those) of the V.

[steh2o]

Thank you for the answers!

Stefano